Possesion Arrow Error

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My understanding what that the technical was for the preceding act of apparent deception for his team to get the throw-in. I actually have a problem with this theory.

JAR, see post #6. There was NO technical foul called before the made shot for an apparent deception to get an unwarranted throw-in. If someone wants to call a "T" for that AFTER the made shot, fine. You do have rules backing to do so. What there is absolutely NO rules backing for though is for anyone to retoactively call an unsporting "T" and then go back and void either the throw-in or the made 3-pointer. You can't retroactively make a ball that was legally live dead, as Camron is trying to claim(I think).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JAR, see post #6. There was NO technical foul called before the made shot for an apparent deception to get an unwarranted throw-in. If someone wants to call a "T" for that AFTER the made shot, fine. You do have rules backing to do so. What there is absolutely NO rules backing for though is for anyone to retoactively call an unsporting "T" and then go back and void either the throw-in or the made 3-pointer. You can't retroactively make a ball that was legally live dead, as Camron is trying to claim(I think).

That's exactly what happens in 10.1.8. I realize the difference in the two situations, but the foul is "actually called" after the fact in both. If the shot is waved off in one, why would it not be waved off in the other?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That's exactly what happens in 10.1.8. I realize the difference in the two situations, but the foul is "actually called" after the fact in both. If the shot is waved off in one, why would it not be waved off in the other?

Because the RULING in 10.1.8 very specifically states "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball." It covers one very specific situation only.

The throw-in situation described in post #6 is one in which a wrong team was also allowed to inbound the ball. And the RULING of case book play 6.4.1SitD tells us how to deal with those---> "Once the throw-in ends - it is too late to change anything."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Because the RULING in 10.1.8 very specifically states "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball." It covers one very specific situation only.

[/i]

True, but the procedure in this case includes putting "consumed" time back on the clock. No one is asking for that here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

True, but the procedure in this case includes putting "consumed" time back on the clock. No one is asking for that here.

Naw, instead some people are saying you can void a basket that was legally made with a live ball. As of right now, I'm still waiting for a rules citation that will allow us to do that. And if you're going to try to use a technical foul called after the basket was made, you'd better have some kind of rules citation attached to that flight of fancy too. That particular scenario isn't worth responding to otherwise, as I told cobra. And if you try to tell me that you can retroactively call a technical foul after a live ball went through the basket, well, good luck backing up any assertation like that with a rules citation also.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Naw, instead some people are saying you can void a basket that was legally made with a live ball. As of right now, I'm still waiting for a rules citation that will allow us to do that. And if you're going to try to use a technical foul called after the basket was made, you'd better have some kind of rules citation attached to that flight of fancy too. That particular scenario isn't worth responding to otherwise, as I told cobra. And if you try to tell me that you can retroactively call a technical foul after a live ball went through the basket, well, good luck backing up any assertation like that with a rules citation also.

You really don't get it. You don't understand live ball/dead ball. Not knowing all the rules isn't a big deal, but you should try to learn them instead of just arguing incorrectly.

6-7-7 says that the ball becomes dead or remains dead when a foul occurs (there are exceptions to this regarding tries and taps but they are not important for this play.) Notice that the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official sounds his whistle.

The official knows that the team is stepping out of bounds with the intent to get the ball when they know it isn't theirs. Right then the foul occurs. What did we say happens when a foul occurs? The ball remains dead. So the player then receives the ball from one of the officials and everyone runs around like the ball is live even though it is actually dead. The ball is passed around, the ball ends up going through the basket. Even though the players were acting as if the ball was live it was actually dead the entire time so it is not a goal.

Just remember that all fouls are called retroactively. The foul occurs which causes the ball to become or remain dead. At some point after that the official will call the foul. If the ball goes though the basket before the official calls the foul it doesn't count as a score because the ball was actually dead.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

6-7-7 says that the ball becomes dead or remains dead when a foul occurs (there are exceptions to this regarding tries and taps but they are not important for this play.) Notice that the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official sounds his whistle.

The official knows that the team is stepping out of bounds with the intent to get the ball when they know it isn't theirs. Right then the foul occurs. What did we say happens when a foul occurs? The ball remains dead. So the player then receives the ball from one of the officials and everyone runs around like the ball is live even though it is actually dead. The ball is passed around, the ball ends up going through the basket. Even though the players were acting as if the ball was live it was actually dead the entire time so it is not a goal.

You forgot to add that the officials and the players, after the ball was handed to the thrower for the throw-in, were all running around and acting as if the ball was live right up until the basket was made.

I get it.

You're saying that an official can hand the ball to a player for a throw-in. The player then makes a throw-in to a teammate while the official chops time in and the clock starts. That team can then pass the ball for any time period they want to before taking a shot. And after that shot was good, the official can THEN blow his whistle and call a technical foul on that team. And then cancel everything that happened before that, up to and including the throw-in, because the "T" occurred when the thrower was first was out of bounds before the throw-in started even though the technical foul wasn't actually called until umpty-ump seconds or minutes later.

A few questions.....
1) Why would the officials act as if the ball was live right from the start of the throw-in up until the made 3-pointer?
2) After the throw-in was completed and the administering official chopped time in and the clock started, how or do you correct the clock if.... say....the shooting team then took about 6 minutes to shoot?
3) Is there any time limit attached to how much time elapses between the occurence of the foul and blowing the whistle for that occurence?
4) Using that exact same logic, if that wrongly-given throw-in happened in the first quarter, could you still call the "T" in the fourth quarter and cancel everything that happened up to then?
5) Can you call that "T" right up until all officials have left the visual confines of the floor?
5) Did you even bother to read case book play 6.4.1SitD and that interp from 2002-03?
6) Are you an official?



I honestly don't really know what else to say.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

You really don't get it. You don't understand live ball/dead ball. Not knowing all the rules isn't a big deal, but you should try to learn them instead of just arguing incorrectly.

6-7-7 says that the ball becomes dead or remains dead when a foul occurs (there are exceptions to this regarding tries and taps but they are not important for this play.) Notice that the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official sounds his whistle.

The official knows that the team is stepping out of bounds with the intent to get the ball when they know it isn't theirs. Right then the foul occurs. What did we say happens when a foul occurs? The ball remains dead. So the player then receives the ball from one of the officials and everyone runs around like the ball is live even though it is actually dead. The ball is passed around, the ball ends up going through the basket. Even though the players were acting as if the ball was live it was actually dead the entire time so it is not a goal.

Just remember that all fouls are called retroactively. The foul occurs which causes the ball to become or remain dead. At some point after that the official will call the foul. If the ball goes though the basket before the official calls the foul it doesn't count as a score because the ball was actually dead.

Cobra, right there is all that I need to know about you and your rules knowledge. According to you, the foul occured when the wrong thrower stepped out of bounds. The official then wrongfully administered the throw-in. The throw-in ended and a team went down and shot the 3-pointer. The shot was good. After the made shot, a coach argued and got a "T". During the time between the player stepping out of bounds for the throw-in and the technical foul being called after the made 3-pointer, there was no whistle. Aamof I still can't find in post #6 where anybody EVER blew a whistle for the technical foul on the thrower. But you still insist that the ball was dead by rule all through that lengthy time interval.

The throw-in never happened according to you.

I'm kinda wondering why the other coach would get upset and get the T" after the made 3-pointer once you told him the throw-in never happened, the 3-pointer was no good and he was getting 2 free throws and the ball. You'd think he'd be kinda happy about that rather than being pissed off, wouldn't you?

As I said, that's all I need to know about you and your rules knowledge.

Yo Camron, your thoughts on this? Seriously.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The official knows that the team is stepping out of bounds with the intent to get the ball when they know it isn't theirs. Right then the foul occurs. What did we say happens when a foul occurs? The ball remains dead. So the player then receives the ball from one of the officials and everyone runs around like the ball is live even though it is actually dead. The ball is passed around, the ball ends up going through the basket. Even though the players were acting as if the ball was live it was actually dead the entire time so it is not a goal.

Just remember that all fouls are called retroactively. The foul occurs which causes the ball to become or remain dead. At some point after that the official will call the foul. If the ball goes though the basket before the official calls the foul it doesn't count as a score because the ball was actually dead.

Grin.

You just can't make something like this up, folks.

And I ain't gonna argue with him either.