Possesion Arrow Error

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

recently heard this happened at a local VB game. 3 mins left in game, V team scores and calls a timeout. Coming out of timeout H team is slow, V team player steps out of bounds for the throw-in. Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable. After V team makes the 3, H coach realizes what happened and is somewhat upset. Other official T's him. H team lost by 5.

Which "him" got the T? The V coach or the H coach?

Even it is not correctable, it is T'able. The fact that the coach said something the moment it was inbounds indicates they did it on purpose. That is an unsporting T.

The only case play that is close is the one where the scoring team deliberate takes the ball OOB (when it should be the other team's ball) and throws it in. But that is close enough for me. They're going to lose that 3 pointer (it was a dead ball), give up 2 FTs and the ball.

The H coach had every right to be pissed. The officials gave the other team the ball incorrectly at the end of the game when likely had a big impact. I'd give him a very long leash on that one.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Which "him" got the T? The V coach or the H coach?

Even it is not correctable, it is T'able. The fact that the coach said something the moment it was inbounds indicates they did it on purpose. That is an unsporting T.

The only case play that is close is the one where the scoring team deliberate takes the ball OOB (when it should be the other team's ball) and throws it in. But that is close enough for me. They're going to lose that 3 pointer (it was a dead ball), give up 2 FTs and the ball.

The H coach had every right to be pissed. The officials gave the other team the ball incorrectly at the end of the game when likely had a big impact. I'd give him a very long leash on that one.

Cameron,
I agree with your line of thinking as far as T-ing up the V coach, but wouldn't the three pointer have to count by rule because the reff handed the v player the ball and the throwin was legally completed?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Cameron,
I agree with your line of thinking as far as T-ing up the V coach, but wouldn't the three pointer have to count by rule because the reff handed the v player the ball and the throwin was legally completed?

The case play Camron is referring to.

A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A's basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with a technical foul; (b) cancel the field goal; (c) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any nonflagrant foul against A2 in the act of shooting; and (d) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire procedure would be followed except no technical foul would be charged. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The case play Camron is referring to.

A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A's basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with a technical foul; (b) cancel the field goal; (c) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any nonflagrant foul against A2 in the act of shooting; and (d) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire procedure would be followed except no technical foul would be charged. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball.

Thanks BBRF, sorry Cameron, see the whole picture now.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Thanks BBRF, sorry Cameron, see the whole picture now.

FWIW, I don't necessarily agree. In this play, the official administers the throw-in to the thrower for the wrong team. In the case play, the wrong team takes the ball after the made basket and inbounds it. Finally, the case play says, "This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball."

[Adam]

the difference is, in the OP, the wrong team wouldn't have gotten a throw-in without the ref's complicity. In the case play, it's following a made basket so the ref never touches the ball.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

Cameron,
I agree with your line of thinking as far as T-ing up the V coach, but wouldn't the three pointer have to count by rule because the reff handed the v player the ball and the throwin was legally completed?

The throwin can't be corrected but the 3-pointer was made AFTER the throwin was completed. They effectively shot a dead ball...even if it took a moment for the official to realize what just happened.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The throwin can't be corrected but the 3-pointer was made AFTER the throwin was completed. They effectively shot a dead ball...even if it took a moment for the official to realize what just happened.

Camron, that's the statement that I've been commenting on. By rule, the player only shot a dead ball if the official had decided to call the technical foul before the ball left the shooter's hands.

I agree that the official can decide to call an unsporting foul on this play. That is always a judgment call. But the ball is still live after the throw-in until the official decides to call that technical foul. And additionally, if the ball is in the air on a 3-point try when the official decides to call the unsporting "T", then the technical foul call does not make the ball dead by rule.

We can't retroactively declare the ball dead. We have to follow the rules. That was my point.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Camron, that's the statement that I've been commenting on. By rule, the player only shot a dead ball if the official had decided to call the technical foul before the ball left the shooter's hands.

I agree that the official can decide to call an unsporting foul on this play. That is always a judgment call. But the ball is still live after the throw-in until the official decides to call that technical foul. And additionally, if the ball is in the air on a 3-point try when the official decides to call the unsporting "T", then the technical foul call does not make the ball dead by rule.

We can't retroactively declare the ball dead. We have to follow the rules. That was my point.

Disagree. When the referee decides to call the foul or actually blows the whistle is irrelevant. The time of the act that the referee determines is a foul, even if it takes a second or two for the referee to decide, is the time the ball becomes dead. That is a pretty basic fundamental of the rules and I'm surprised you're even suggesting otherwise. The infraction itself makes the ball dead at the time of the infraction. The referee is only confirming the fact.

Otherwise, having a patient whistle could open up some very undesirable situations....

A1 travels and then immediately collides with B1 for what would be an obvious block or charge. The referee then decides that the travel came first. If the ball remains live until the whistle is blown, are you calling the travel and the foul?

A2 fouls B1 just before A1 releases a shot. The referee decides it was a foul and blows the whistle just after A1 released the shot. It was clear that A2 fouled before the release. Does the shot count since the referee didn't decide/blow until after the release?

A1, not yet in the shooting motion, is fouled by B1 and then runs into B3 for either an obvious block or a charge (doesn't really matter which for the purposes of this discussion) all before you can make a judgement and blow the whistle for the first contact. Are you saying that the rules support the ball remaining live after the first contact/foul such that the second contact is also subject to a common foul. Or is the ball dead on the first contact?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The throwin can't be corrected but the 3-pointer was made AFTER the throwin was completed. They effectively shot a dead ball...even if it took a moment for the official to realize what just happened.

Let's go back to Square One....

See above.....

By rule, the ball was live on the throw-in as soon as it was at the disposal of the thrower. The ball was still live after the throw-in ended. Once the throw-in ended, it was too late by rule to go back and change anything.

They then effectively would shoot a dead ball by rule ONLY if the official had called a technical foul...or had decided to call a technical foul and had not blown the whistle for it yet ... BEFORE the shot left the shooter's hand. If the official decided to call a technical foul after the shot was in the air, by rule the ball remains live until the shot is made or missed.

That was my point.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's go back to Square One....

See above.....

By rule, the ball was live on the throw-in as soon as it was at the disposal of the thrower. The ball was still live after the throw-in ended. Once the throw-in ended, it was too late by rule to go back and change anything.

They then effectively would shoot a dead ball by rule ONLY if the official had called a technical foul...or had decided to call a technical foul and had not blown the whistle for it yet ... BEFORE the shot left the shooter's hand. If the official decided to call a technical foul after the shot was in the air, by rule the ball remains live until the shot is made or missed.

That was my point.

I don't presume to speak for Camron, but I think his point is this. Is a technical foul different from a personal foul? The action which caused the foul is what causes the ball to become dead, not the official's decision to make the call, and not the whistle.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't presume to speak for Camron, but I think his point is this. Is a technical foul different from a personal foul? The action which caused the foul is what causes the ball to become dead, not the official's decision to make the call, and not the whistle.

Exactly....and it is a pretty basic rule.

The dead ball rule doesn't differentiate between types of foul....just that a foul, when it occurs, makes the ball dead (with exceptions for continuous motion and a try already in the air). The whistle only causes the ball to become dead when it is not for an infraction or not already dead for an infraction.

Basketball rules fundamental....

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

In this case, the infraction, when it is committed, causes the ball to become dead immediately, not the whistle itself nor after the after the time it takes for the official to recognize the infraction. If the shot is not in the air when the foul occurs, it can not count. In this case, the foul clearly occurred before the try was in the air.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's go back to Square One....

See above.....

By rule.....by rule.... by rule ....

That was my point.

No matter how many times you say "by rule", it will not change what the rule actually says.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't presume to speak for Camron, but I think his point is this. Is a technical foul different from a personal foul? The action which caused the foul is what causes the ball to become dead, not the official's decision to make the call, and not the whistle.

And my point is that in the OP there was absolutely nothing that occurred that would make the ball dead before the foul call. And if the attempted shot where the foul occurred went in, it would have counted.

I was also agreeing that a technical foul being called before the shot attempt would also make the ball dead.

I have no idea how we got seem to have gotten so far off track from that.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And my point is that in the OP there was absolutely nothing that occurred that would make the ball dead before the foul call. And if the attempted shot where the foul occurred went in, it would have counted.

I was also agreeing that a technical foul being called before the shot attempt would also make the ball dead.

I have no idea how we got seem to have gotten so far off track from that.

The call is not what makes the ball dead. It is when the foul occurs. When did it occur in this case? The team used devious methods to accept a throw-in to which it was not entitled. The ball was dead when they threw it in. No basket.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

They then effectively would shoot a dead ball by rule ONLY if the official had called a technical foul...or had decided to call a technical foul and had not blown the whistle for it yet ... BEFORE the shot left the shooter's hand. If the official decided to call a technical foul after the shot was in the air, by rule the ball remains live until the shot is made or missed.

That was my point.

How are you saying "by rule"? The rules do not support what you are saying. The ball becomes dead when the foul occurs not when the official decides to call it.