Why we avoid conflicts of interest

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I you give a coach a stop sign and say "this is you warning!" How is that not universal?

It's not a universal practice all over the country. I think the meaning of it is crystal clear, but it takes quite a bit for me to get to the point where I draw a visible line on the court and essentially (in some coaches' minds) dare them to step over it.

And that's probably why I don't like it. I don't like when coaches show me up and there's a part of me that thinks that me putting my hand up for the coach (and everyone else) to see puts a coach into a corner, and there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's not a universal practice all over the country. I think the meaning of it is crystal clear, but it takes quite a bit for me to get to the point where I draw a visible line on the court and essentially (in some coaches' minds) dare them to step over it.

And that's probably why I don't like it. I don't like when coaches show me up and there's a part of me that thinks that me putting my hand up for the coach (and everyone else) to see puts a coach into a corner, and there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

I view it as a tool to let the coach know we have had enough and they will choose to go down one of two roads. Road one: try to correct their behavior and move on. Road two: leads straight to Whackland! It is their choice.

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I view it as a tool to let the coach know we have had enough and they will choose to go down one of two roads. Road one: try to correct their behavior and move on. Road two: leads straight to Whackland! It is their choice.

I tend to agree here. I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of you, but this logic makes sense to me. It gives a coach a choice, and they can't say we didn't warn them. I've used it with success before, but I've also T'd after using it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

I tend to agree here. I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of you, but this logic makes sense to me. It gives a coach a choice, and they can't say we didn't warn them. I've used it with success before, but I've also T'd after using it.

A piece of advice. You considered it success when the T wasn't issued. That implies that you consider it failure when the coach runs through the sign. It's not failure -- it's the coach's choice. Just cause I like to use other tools in the bag before I pull out the stop sign (it's the last possible step before a T, IMO) does not mean it's a failure on the part of the officials if the coach runs through it.

A technical foul is not failure. Those that tell you they haven't called one in 20 years are likely spineless officials who've ignored their responsibilities. Coaches are human beings and one thing that's true is that you don't work 50+ games a season without at least a few coaches crossing the line. Enforce and move on. Do like I do and try to figure out if there was a better way to deal with the situation. My main problem with last night is that I felt I gave way too much rope -- had I warned earlier, maybe the coach would've gotten the message. Maybe not. Still thinking about that one.

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

A piece of advice. You considered it success when the T wasn't issued. That implies that you consider it failure when the coach runs through the sign. It's not failure -- it's the coach's choice. Just cause I like to use other tools in the bag before I pull out the stop sign (it's the last possible step before a T, IMO) does not mean it's a failure on the part of the officials if the coach runs through it.

A technical foul is not failure. Those that tell you they haven't called one in 20 years are likely spineless officials who've ignored their responsibilities. Coaches are human beings and one thing that's true is that you don't work 50+ games a season without at least a few coaches crossing the line. Enforce and move on. Do like I do and try to figure out if there was a better way to deal with the situation. My main problem with last night is that I felt I gave way too much rope -- had I warned earlier, maybe the coach would've gotten the message. Maybe not. Still thinking about that one.

Thanks for the advice. That's how I see it. You put it into words better than I did.

[GoodwillRef]

In NCAAW we are instructed to give a STOP SIGN and verbally say that “You have been warned.” If you don't give a verbal it is not considered a warning. We are instructed to "try" to give a warning before a technical is given.

[Adam]

And for the record, I hate the idea of doing it "for the tape," as if your assigner won't trust your word but needs the tape to back you up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's not a universal practice all over the country. I think the meaning of it is crystal clear, but it takes quite a bit for me to get to the point where I draw a visible line on the court and essentially (in some coaches' minds) dare them to step over it.

And that's probably why I don't like it. I don't like when coaches show me up and there's a part of me that thinks that me putting my hand up for the coach (and everyone else) to see puts a coach into a corner, and there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Putting up a stop sign and saying "that's enough" are the exact same thing imo. The intent of both should be to put a coach in a corner. If the coach wants to ignore either that verbal or non-verbal final warning, he does so at his own risk. And it's also now on me if I fail to follow up on that "final" warning if challenged.

JMO

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Putting up a stop sign and saying "that's enough" are the exact same thing imo. The intent of both should be to put a coach in a corner. If the coach wants to ignore either that verbal or non-verbal final warning, he does so at his own risk. And it's also now on me if I fail to follow up on that "final" warning if challenged.

JMO

Oh, I know. But I can say, "That's enough" in a way where only the coach and I know I've said it. Sometimes the reaction, IMO, can be completely different. Sometimes it's important to let everyone else know you've heard and acknowledged what's been said and that you aren't going to continue to listen to it. That's how I felt last night. This was, truly, over one call on a shooting foul in a 20-point game. It still amazes me that he chose that point to find a scapegoat for his frustration. Seriously, they hit a 3 on their first possession and didn't score again until there was 3 minutes left in the second quarter.

This is only the second time I've worked a game involving this coach, and he's probably experienced a lot of officials whose motto is "Stop it or I'll tell you to stop it again." He did tell one of my partners that he had only received 3 technicals in 14 years.

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's not a universal practice all over the country. I think the meaning of it is crystal clear, but it takes quite a bit for me to get to the point where I draw a visible line on the court and essentially (in some coaches' minds) dare them to step over it.

And that's probably why I don't like it. I don't like when coaches show me up and there's a part of me that thinks that me putting my hand up for the coach (and everyone else) to see puts a coach into a corner, and there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Rich -

You are right on brother !!!!! I hate to keep using "NBA Philosophies" with regard to NHFS / NCAA, but Scott Foster has told a bunch of us to put our hands down by our hips, more along the lines of an "easy coach".

Giving the stop sign (when two adults are involved) is absurd. We wouldn't want it and why should we treat another adult like a child.

Just think that too many of us think because we put on the stripes, it gives us
unlimited authority whenever we choose.......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

You are right on brother !!!!! I hate to keep using "NBA Philosophies" with regard to NHFS / NCAA, but Scott Foster has told a bunch of us to put our hands down by our hips, more along the lines of an "easy coach".

Giving the stop sign (when two adults are involved) is absurd. We wouldn't want it and why should we treat another adult like a child.

Just think that too many of us think because we put on the stripes, it gives us
unlimited authority whenever we choose.......

When did taking a non-threatening posture when dealing with players or coaches become a freaking NBA philosophy? Officials at all levels have been using various forms of that philosophy...folded arms, etc when listening or answering a question....for many, many years....before Scott Foster was born.

And btw, our "unlimited authority" is usually limited by the people we report to. They won't put up with any loose cannons going off. And conversely I also think that far too many of us are afraid to use that supposedly "unlimited authority" to keep their games under control. They're looking for any reason not to call a technical foul. And by far the most used reason by them is the good ol' "it's good game management" excuse.

JMO

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

When did taking a non-threatening posture when dealing with players or coaches become a freaking NBA philosophy? Officials at all levels have been using various forms of that philosophy...folded arms, etc when listening or answering a question....for many, many years....before Scott Foster was born.

And btw, our "unlimited authority" is usually limited by the people we report to. They won't put up with any loose cannons going off. And conversely I also think that far too many of us are afraid to use that supposedly "unlimited authority" to keep their games under control. They're looking for any reason not to call a technical foul. And by far the most used reason by them is the good ol' "it's good game management" excuse.

JMO

I'm on a roll. We had 3 technicals last night -- one for each of us. 2 of them came during a scuffle after a foul.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm on a roll. We had 3 technicals last night -- one for each of us. 2 of them came during a scuffle after a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm on a roll. We had 3 technicals last night -- one for each of us. 2 of them came during a scuffle after a foul.

Naw, you're just dealing with what comes up that you have to deal with. It comes with the job.

You know that.

And you know you'll continue doing that too without analyzing it to death.

[Judtech]

I wonder how officiating one of my wife's games would work out!!