Time out

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mregor

Why? If you haven't called a held ball, it's by default, still PC/TC of the person who had it. To me, this is simple. Grant TO for original team in control up until the point you deem it a held ball. If you deem it a held ball prior to hearing the TO request, then call the held ball. That's the 2 choices here. Either it was a held ball before the TO request (held ball) or the TO was prior to the held ball (grant TO).

Exactly.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mregor

Why? If you haven't called a held ball, it's by default, still PC/TC of the person who had it. To me, this is simple. Grant TO for original team in control up until the point you deem it a held ball. If you deem it a held ball prior to hearing the TO request, then call the held ball. That's the 2 choices here. Either it was a held ball before the TO request (held ball) or the TO was prior to the held ball (grant TO).

Frankly, because there's no time requirement for a held ball. The held ball starts when the players have grasped it, even if it takes me a second to recognize the situation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I honestly don't know how you can think that when the rule clearly says "have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness." Seems to me it's obviously talking about control of the ball.

But if you think so, then please cite the rule that says so. I've looked at 4-12 until I'm blue in the face and I can't find a thing that supports that.

We only have two types of control. What kind of control do you think it is referring to?

Since it is talking about two individual players, it must be player control that it is talking about....as opposed to team control. A player has control of the ball has player control and vice versa.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We only have two types of control. What kind of control do you think it is referring to?

Since it is talking about two individual players, it must be player control that it is talking about....as opposed to team control. A player has control of the ball has player control and vice versa.

The word control is used throughout the rule book. it does not always refer to player or team control. In this situation, it refers to control of the ball.

Again, cite a rule reference that supports your position.

Also, I noticed you didn't respond to the play I posted. What would you do?

PLAY
A1 has the ball and B1 attempts to grab it. Obviously, there's going to be a held ball. The trail blows the whistle as Coach A has requested a timeout. A second later, the lead blows his whistle for a held ball.
Are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to ignore the first whistle and go with the second whistle?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Frankly, because there's no time requirement for a held ball. The held ball starts when the players have grasped it, even if it takes me a second to recognize the situation.

Again, how are you going to rule on this play.

PLAY
A1 has the ball and B1 attempts to grab it. Obviously, there's going to be a held ball. The trail blows the whistle as Coach A has requested a timeout. A second later, the lead blows his whistle for a held ball.
Are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to ignore the first whistle and go with the second whistle?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Again, how are you going to rule on this play.

PLAY
A1 has the ball and B1 attempts to grab it. Obviously, there's going to be a held ball. The trail blows the whistle as Coach A has requested a timeout. A second later, the lead blows his whistle for a held ball.
Are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to ignore the first whistle and go with the second whistle?

B1 attempts to grab it? Does he grab it or not?

And way to complicate matters with the 2nd official; no, I'm not going with the 2nd whistle. If the on-ball official holds the whistle too long, and the off-ball official recognizes a TO request before the held ball whistle, I'll go with the TO.

But while I personally am not going to recognize the TO request when there is "dual possession," I'm not going to get into a pissing match with a partner over it either.

[BktBallRef]

[quote=Snaqwells;710664]B1 attempts to grab it? Does he grab it or not?[/quote

Who knows? These things happen so fast in a game. That's my point, that the whistles are really the only reference points we had with regard to the request and the held ball. The off ball official won't know whether there's four hands on the ball or not unless he hears a whistle.

And way to complicate matters with the 2nd official; no, I'm not going with the 2nd whistle. If the on-ball official holds the whistle too long, and the off-ball official recognizes a TO request before the held ball whistle, I'll go with the TO.

But isn't that the most likely possibility? Whether two or three man, you're likely to have one offical focused on the ball and timeout being granted by an off the ball official.

But while I personally am not going to recognize the TO request when there is "dual possession," I'm not going to get into a pissing match with a partner over it either.

That's because you'll see and whistle a held ball when it occurs. And again, that's our reference point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's because you'll see and whistle a held ball when it occurs. And again, that's our reference point.

True, but I tend to hold my whistle a moment to see if one player or the other can safely wrest control from the other.

If, in that brief moment of indecision, coach requests a TO, I see myself moving directly to HB. That's how I've done it, and it's served me relatively well. I can't imagine being able to say the same thing if a HB were to occur in front of B's coach and A's coach is granted a TO and possession simply because a TO was requested in the time between the ball being grasped by both sides and my decision to whistle for the HB.

"Why does he get the ball?"
"His player had control."
"So did mine, why wasn't it a held ball?"

Again, it seems to me the held ball starts when the grasping starts, even if we take a moment to determine if it's sufficiently "lodged" between players.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

PLAY
A1 has the ball and B1 attempts to grab it. Obviously, there's going to be a held ball. The trail blows the whistle as Coach A has requested a timeout. A second later, the lead blows his whistle for a held ball.
Are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to ignore the first whistle and go with the second whistle?

I'll answer it...

Trail gets the call...s/he was first, so s/he obviously heard the TO request BEFORE the held ball.

Again, If I see a held ball situation and I haven't quite put air in the whistle for it...

...and then, the HC requests a TO...he ain't getting the TO just because I havent' put air in my whistle. In my mind it was a held ball PRIOR to the TO request.

If you saw the held ball but, hadn't blown the whistle for the held ball...and at approx. the same time the HC requests a TO...are you saying you would grant the TO just because you have not blown the whistle for a held ball?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The word control is used throughout the rule book. it does not always refer to player or team control. In this situation, it refers to control of the ball.

Again, cite a rule reference that supports your position.

The word player is implied in the reference to "two opponents".

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Also, I noticed you didn't respond to the play I posted. What would you do?

PLAY
A1 has the ball and B1 attempts to grab it. Obviously, there's going to be a held ball. The trail blows the whistle as Coach A has requested a timeout. A second later, the lead blows his whistle for a held ball.
Are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to ignore the first whistle and go with the second whistle?

You play is ambiguous. No one can know that the call should be with the information given. It appears that you may be saying the ball is not yet held, so a timeout would be correct. But, I can't tell what the sequence of events is from what you posted.

It seems that basic common sense is all you need to know that a player doesn't have player control of a ball held by another player.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

If you saw the held ball but, hadn't blown the whistle for the held ball...and at approx. the same time the HC requests a TO...are you saying you would grant the TO just because you have not blown the whistle for a held ball?

No, I'll blow whichever came first.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The word player is implied in the reference to "two opponents".

Implied. LOL!

You play is ambiguous. No one can know that the call should be with the information given. It appears that you may be saying the ball is not yet held, so a timeout would be correct. But, I can't tell what the sequence of events is from what you posted.

Not sure why, Snaq and Rookiedude didn't have any trouble with the sequence. A whistle for a TO and a second later, a whistle for a held ball. Very clear.

It seems that basic common sense is all you need to know that a player doesn't have player control of a ball held by another player.

Even if it's contrary to the rules, right?

Have fun, I'm done, we just won't agree on this one. But officials everywhere will continue to grant the timeout if that whistle comes first.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Have fun, I'm done, we just won't agree on this one. But officials everywhere will continue to grant the timeout if that request comes first.

If you replace "whistle" above with "request", does that simplify it so everybody should agree? If a legal TO request is made before the held ball is called, there is NO justification under the rules NOT to grant that TO request,

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you replace "whistle" above with "request", does that simplify it so everybody should agree? If a legal TO request is made before the held ball is called, there is NO justification under the rules NOT to grant that TO request,

No idea...I've tried to make it as simple as possible from the get-go.

I'll leave it to you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you replace "whistle" above with "request", does that simplify it so everybody should agree? If a legal TO request is made before the held ball is called, there is NO justification under the rules NOT to grant that TO request,

I'll go with "if a legal TO request is made before the held ball is [b]observed (or recognized, or whatever) by the official[b] there is no justigfication not to grant the TO request."

The point being that there might be a delay between the official seeing the held ball and getting the whistle blown.

And, just having B's hands on the ball is not a held ball. It's not held until the official judges it to be so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'll go with "if a legal TO request is made before the held ball is observed (or recognized, or whatever) by the official there is no justification not to grant the TO request."

The point being that there might be a delay between the official seeing the held ball and getting the whistle blown.

And, just having B's hands on the ball is not a held ball. It's not held until the official judges it to be so.

That works well also by rule. And it's basically all that Tony was saying.

It's the same delay between the official hearing the TO request and then blowing the whistle to grant the TO request as recognizing the held ball and then blowing the whistle to call that held ball.

If there's a problem, the officials have to get together and decide who recognized what first----> the TO request or the held ball.