Team T?

[mbyron]

Situation: A14 is shooting a 1-and-1 for a common foul. Lead bounces ball to shooter, then horn buzzes, then B24 runs on the court without being beckoned. B12 on the near block starts to leave the game, and B24 starts to take his spot on the lane. We whistle and decide we have to assess a T.

Two possibilities:
10-1-6: it's a team technical to "Have more than five team members participating simultaneously."

10-2-2: it's a player technical for a sub to enter the court "Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters."

So it sounds like an obvious violation of 10-2-2, since nobody beckoned the sub. However, look at 10.2.1(A):

10.2.1 SITUATION A: Substitute A1 enters the court without reporting to the
scorer. The infraction is discovered: (a) before the ball becomes live; or (b) after
the ball becomes live. RULING: In (a), a technical foul is charged to A1. In (b), it
is too late to penalize A1.

Since the ball was live when we "discovered" the infraction, it seems to be "too late" to penalize B24. The same principle appears in 10.2.2: you call a player T only when the ball is dead and the sub enters without being beckoned.

So here's the question: do we have different fouls depending on whether the ball is live? If it's a dead ball, we penalize under 10-2-2 with a player T, but if it's a live ball (as in our sitch) we penalize under 10-1-6 with a team T?

[Adam]

If you see the sub enter illegally, I think that falls within the intent; which is to penalize the proper player. 6 players is a team T because you don't know which player made the error.

[Jurassic Referee]

Personally, I'd keep reading and go with case book play 10.2.1SitB(a).

But that's just me.....

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I'd keep reading and go with case book play 10.2.1SitB(a).

But that's just me.....

I saw that, but the assumption there seems to be that both (a) and (b) occur during a dead ball. The point of the case seems to be that violating both provisions of 10-2-1 results in just a single T.

10.2.1 SITUATION B: Team A substitute No. 24: (a) reports to the scorer, but
enters the court without being beckoned; or (b) goes directly from the bench and
onto the court without being beckoned. RULING: One technical foul is charged to
No. 24 in (a) and (b). In (b), even though No. 24 failed to comply with both
requirements, only one foul is charged.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you see the sub enter illegally, I think that falls within the intent; which is to penalize the proper player. 6 players is a team T because you don't know which player made the error.

OK, but how do you know that's the intent, as opposed to my idea about distinguishing live-ball from dead-ball infractions?

In particular, how do you explain the ruling in 10.2.1A (b) (posted above) according to which it's "too late" to penalize A1? If the intent of the rule were to "penalize the proper player," presumably we should assess a foul on A1.

[Jurassic Referee]

I don't explain anything except that B24 ran on the court without being beckoned. Everybody in the gym including his coach saw him do it too. And you know that the purpose and intent of the substutution rules are to "T" up anybody who does something dumb like that. So...just do so without worrying about possibly conflicting language.

Sometimes you just gotta referee.

JMO.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't explain anything except that B24 ran on the court without being beckoned. Everybody in the gym including his coach saw him do it too. And you know that the purpose and intent of the substutution rules are to "T" up anybody who does something dumb like that. So...just do so without worrying about possibly conflicting language.

Sometimes you just gotta referee.

JMO.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Snaqs: if that is the intent of the rule, then how do you explain the ruling in 10.2.1A (b) (posted above) according to which it's "too late" to penalize A1? If the intent of the rule were to "penalize the proper player," presumably we should assess a foul on A1.

That's not just possibly conflicting, it's actually conflicting.

[mbyron]

I think I can answer my own question. Like you guys, I've been thinking that the issue of whether to assess a team T or a player T turns on whether we can identify the guilty party.

But now I think that's wrong. 10-2 concerns substitutes, and we can assess an individual T on illegal subs when they are still subs.

A "sub" who runs onto the court during a live ball instantly becomes a player according to 4-34-3. So the reason it's "too late" to hit A1 with an illegal sub T in 10.2.1A (b) is that A1 is no longer a sub once the ball is live.

That's why the live/dead ball issue is relevant: it determines whether or not you're dealing with a substitute or a player. If it's a sub, we use 10-2. If it's a player, you have to go with 10-1-6, not because you don't know who's an illegal sub, but because there are no subs, and you have 6 players.

Sound right?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Situation: A14 is shooting a 1-and-1 for a common foul. Lead bounces ball to shooter, then horn buzzes, then B24 runs on the court without being beckoned. B12 on the near block starts to leave the game, and B24 starts to take his spot on the lane. We whistle and decide we have to assess a T.

Two possibilities:
10-1-6: it's a team technical to "Have more than five team members participating simultaneously."

10-2-2: it's a player technical for a sub to enter the court "Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters."

So it sounds like an obvious violation of 10-2-2, since nobody beckoned the sub. However, look at 10.2.1(A):

10.2.1 SITUATION A: Substitute A1 enters the court without reporting to the
scorer. The infraction is discovered: (a) before the ball becomes live; or (b) after
the ball becomes live. RULING: In (a), a technical foul is charged to A1. In (b), it
is too late to penalize A1.

Since the ball was live when we "discovered" the infraction, it seems to be "too late" to penalize B24. The same principle appears in 10.2.2: you call a player T only when the ball is dead and the sub enters without being beckoned.

So here's the question: do we have different fouls depending on whether the ball is live? If it's a dead ball, we penalize under 10-2-2 with a player T, but if it's a live ball (as in our sitch) we penalize under 10-1-6 with a team T?

The case play is saying that the player enters while the ball is dead and isn't discovered until after it is live. In that case, it's too late to penalize.

Your play is different. The sub enters while the ball is live. The T is for entering without being beckoned.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The case play is saying that the player enters while the ball is dead and isn't discovered until after it is live. In that case, it's too late to penalize.

Your play is different. The sub enters while the ball is live. The T is for entering without being beckoned.

Ok, that sounds good to me.

[BillyMac]

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

If a substitute enters the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods, then a technical foul shall be charged to the substitute. Each illegal substitute gets one technical foul per instance, whether they didn’t report, or entered the court without being beckoned, or both. However, two technical fouls are not charged if the illegal substitute doesn’t report and enters without being beckoned. A substitute technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

If a substitute enters the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods, then a technical foul shall be charged to the substitute. Each illegal substitute gets one technical foul per instance, whether they didn’t report, or entered the court without being beckoned, or both. However, two technical fouls are not charged if the illegal substitute doesn’t report and enters without being beckoned. A substitute technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized.

Billy, I'm going to start calling you "Blister."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Shows Up When The Work Is Done.

Sorry. Some people have to work for a living. And I had a rare (for Connecticut) Wednesday night game tonight.