If I could change one rule, it would be....

[bainsey]

Getting back to the original thread idea...

Could anyone tell me where the term "umpire" came from as it relates to a basketball official? Aside from your partner, when's the last time someone at a basketball game called you an "ump?"

I might suggest getting rid of the term "umpire" in basketball, going with "assistant referee" (or "A.R."), or calling the one in charge the "head referee." Once the ball is tossed, it's not like there's a huge disparity of duties or positioning (like referees and umpires in football).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Could anyone tell me where the term "umpire" came from as it relates to a basketball official?

Ask Dr. Naismith.

USA Basketball: Naismith's Original 13 Rules

I realize the duties have changed quite a bit since the Original 13 rules but I believe the designations are a nod to tradition more than anything else.

Assistant Referee doesn't make sense because for the most part, all of the officials have the same duties.

[DesMoines]

Original Rules:
10. The umpire shall be the judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive fouls have been made. He shall have power to disqualify people according to Rule 5.
11. The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it belongs, and shall keep the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made and keep account of the baskets, with any other duties that are usually performed by a scorekeeper.

There's also an article on the history of officiating in the Winter 2010 NFHS Official's Quarterly.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Getting back to the original thread idea...

Could anyone tell me where the term "umpire" came from as it relates to a basketball official? Aside from your partner, when's the last time someone at a basketball game called you an "ump?"

I might suggest getting rid of the term "umpire" in basketball, going with "assistant referee" (or "A.R."), or calling the one in charge the "head referee." Once the ball is tossed, it's not like there's a huge disparity of duties or positioning (like referees and umpires in football).

And then you will say "when was the last time someone called you an assistant referee?"

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Cobra

And then you will say "when was the last time someone called you an assistant referee?"

Not at all. When someone says, "hey ref!" or refer to "the refs," at least they would be correct.

Anyway, nice catch, Welpe. Obviously, I overlooked the original 13, but when you consider that referees and umpires had separate duties -- far different from today -- you wonder if the term "umpire" has long outlasted its use.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Not at all. When someone says, "hey ref!" or refer to "the refs," at least they would be correct.

Anyway, nice catch, Welpe. Obviously, I overlooked the original 13, but when you consider that referees and umpires had separate duties -- far different from today -- you wonder if the term "umpire" has long outlasted its use.

It's semantics.

Perhaps we should rename the endline since everyone calls it the "baseline." Or we could add an "over the back" foul.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's semantics.

Perhaps we should rename the endline since everyone calls it the "baseline." Or we could add an "over the back" foul.

With the Boris Karloff mechanic?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

With the Boris Karloff mechanic?

Also known as the "creeping death" foul.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Perhaps we should rename the endline since everyone calls it the "baseline." Or we could add an "over the back" foul.

I saw that Karloff mechanic more than once at the UMaine/Boston U. game yesterday. To say such mechanics are discouraged by our organization would be an understatement. (When in Rome, I guess.)

Anyway, if you really want to get down to linguistics, Snaq, there are reasons why those two examples wouldn't work. "Umpire" is more of a semantics thing, I suppose, but it's more than about simply making a change to reflect common usage. That common usage would have to be literally accurate, as well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I saw that Karloff mechanic more than once at the UMaine/Boston U. game yesterday. To say such mechanics are discouraged by our organization would be an understatement. (When in Rome, I guess.)

Anyway, if you really want to get down to linguistics, Snaq, there are reasons why those two examples wouldn't work. "Umpire" is more of a semantics thing, I suppose, but it's more than about simply making a change to reflect common usage. That common usage would have to be literally accurate, as well.

I thought your whole reason was because we're never called "umpire." (common usage)

The accuracy of the terms is completely arbitrary and determined by the rule book. Heck, Arbiter uses R1, R2, and R3; but guys in my association automatically adjust to R, U1, and U2, during pregame. "Who's the R again?"

"Assistant Referee" has connotations to it that are negative, IMO. "Head referee" denotes more authority than really exists (again, IMO).

IOW, it ain't broke.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I thought your whole reason was because we're never called "umpire." (common usage)

The accuracy of the terms is completely arbitrary and determined by the rule book. Heck, Arbiter uses R1, R2, and R3; but guys in my association automatically adjust to R, U1, and U2, during pregame. "Who's the R again?"

"Assistant Referee" has connotations to it that are negative, IMO. "Head referee" denotes more authority than really exists (again, IMO).

IOW, it ain't broke.

Scorebooks also have referee/umpire designations. Our Arbiter has R, U1 & U2 designations. My prior one in VT did as well. The fans, players and coaches don't know the rules anyway, so why make a change here?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I thought your whole reason was because we're never called "umpire." (common usage)

Not whole. As you pointed out, it can't be change for change's sake. The change has to make verbal sense (whereas "baseline" and "over the back" have proven flaws).

I don't see anything negative about "A.R.," as it's used in soccer, but it's true that there's not a lot of authority involved for a "head" referee in basketball. For some reason, it doesn't stop us from asking, colloqually, "who's the boss tonight?"

For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I saw that Karloff mechanic more than once at the UMaine/Boston U. game yesterday. To say such mechanics are discouraged by our organization would be an understatement. (When in Rome, I guess.)

Anyway, if you really want to get down to linguistics, Snaq, there are reasons why those two examples wouldn't work. "Umpire" is more of a semantics thing, I suppose, but it's more than about simply making a change to reflect common usage. That common usage would have to be literally accurate, as well.

The NFHS actually did change their volleyball officials' designations a couple years ago, from referee and umpire to R1 and R2. But, in that case, it actually made sense. More widely used rules sets have long called them R1 and R2. The two officials have distinct responsibilities and the R1 has clear authority to overrule all other officials. The distinction is widely acknowledged in common usage, with the two officials often being called the "up official" and "down official".

But, in basketball there is only one common usage, and that's "Ref". The distinction between referee and umpire is minor and of no consequence to anyone except officials and assignors. The current designations are traditional and are consistent between rules sets.

It just ain't broke...

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Not at all. When someone says, "hey ref!" or refer to "the refs," at least they would be correct.

Ref is short for referee. The other officials would have to be called assistant refs to be correct.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Heck, Arbiter uses R1, R2, and R3

The arbiter uses whatever the administrator wants it is use.

Originally Posted by bainsey

For me, it just doesn't make sense that we're continuing to use a term that is rarely used or understood outside our circle, particularly if there's a clearer alternative.

So I guess all the people who never knew that there was a referee and an umpire are now going to know that there is a referee and an assistant referee? Seems like if they didn't know what the officials were called before they aren't going to magically just figure it out now.

Actually it is commonly understood that the lead official is called the referee and the others are called something else as it is common to many sports such as: Basketball, football, rugby, soccer, hockey, sumo wrestling...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Cobra

And then you will say "when was the last time someone called you an assistant referee?"

I think there is an abbreviation which is commonly used.