Roll over = travel

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So we let the kid roll over on his side to get away from the defender who's trying to get the ball? Yep, makes sense, let's penalize the defender.


Traveling every time for me.

So if a player secures a loose ball lying flat on his back and lifts his left shoulder blade and left butt cheek off the floor to pass to a teammate, that is "rolling over" and you're going to call a travel?

I'm with Nevada on this one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zm1283

So if a player secures a loose ball lying flat on his back and lifts his left shoulder blade and left butt cheek off the floor to pass to a teammate, that is "rolling over" and you're going to call a travel?

I'm with Nevada on this one.

Seriously? That's what you get from that post? Wow.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Seriously? That's what you get from that post? Wow.

I'm just doing what people do on this board all the time: Infer things from a post that the author may or may not have meant.

In all seriousness, I don't agree with how BktBallRef interprets this rule. I believe "roll over" means to roll over to your other side, whether it be your front or back. If I'm on my back with the ball and I end up on my side momentarily to pass to a teammate or request a timeout, I would consider that a "lean" or a "twist", not a "roll over".

[Camron Rust]

If a player shifts form one stable position to a different stable position, they have rolled over. I consider stable positions to be back, stomach, right side, and left side. If they're in between, the get to settle to one of the stable positions. But once they settle, I do not permit them to change. That doesn't mean they can't rock around as they continue to "play", but they can't change to a "new" position.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I consider stable positions to be back, stomach, right side, and left side. If they're in between, the get to settle to one of the stable positions. But once they settle, I do not permit them to change. That doesn't mean they can't rock around as they continue to "play", but they can't change to a "new" position.

I consider back and stomach to be the stable positions. Afaik the intent and purpose of the rule is that it's a violation to roll over from one position to the other while holding the ball. That's rolling over. I've never seen or heard of an interpretation anywhere that said it's illegal to roll side to side while you're holding the ball on either your back or stomach.

Sounds like the only way to really settle this one is to get a FED clarification on it.

[BillyMac]

Don't make me whip out my protractor.

[mbyron]

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I've never seen or heard of an interpretation anywhere that said it's illegal to roll side to side while you're holding the ball on either your back or stomach.

I've never seen or heard of an interpretation anywhere that said it's LEGAL to roll side to side while you're holding the ball on either your back or stomach.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?

RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball.

What can A1 not do?
He/she may not roll over.

What can A1 do?
If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up.

So the case play tells us that the ONLY thing A1 can do while holding the ball in this position is to sit up if he/she is on her back.

There's nothing that says A1 can roll over on his/her side if A1 is on his/her back or stomach.

Traveling.
Jurassic siding with NevadaRef.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

1) 4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?

Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.

What can A1 not do?
He/she may not roll over.


2) There's nothing that says A1 can roll over on his/her side if A1 is on his/her back or stomach.

1) Yup, I agree that the player can't roll over without traveling. I'm already on record as saying that.

2) There's nothing there either that says A1 can't roll onto their side. Rolling onto their side isn't rolling over imo. If you roll over from your back, you end up on your stomach. Conversely, if you roll over from your stomach, you end up on your back. You're adding something that is not definitively laid out in the case play.

Here endeth the lesson.

We disagree. And until the FED gives us a clarification, I guess we'll still be disagreeing.

And for the record, I agree with Nevada most of the time. I think he's a very knowledgable official. It's only when he gets carried away with some of his strict law'n'order stuff that I really have to disagree with him. Vehemently. But that's also only my opinion. Hell, fwiw Jeff Rutledge and I have been fighting over some things for 10 years now and if I'm lucky we'll spend another 10 years fighting over 'em, but I still very much agree with and respect the great majority of his answers. Don't tell him that though. Takes all the fun out of arguing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Jurassic siding with NevadaRef.

Well, tomorrow is the first Winter Solstice Full Moon Eclipse in at least 370 years (450 according to some sources.)

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, tomorrow is the first Winter Solstice Full Moon Eclipse in at least 370 years (450 according to some sources.)

Will that be the 2nd one witnessed by MTD Sr?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, tomorrow is the first Winter Solstice Full Moon Eclipse in at least 370 years (450 according to some sources.)

But it's not a Blue Moon.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, tomorrow is the first Winter Solstice Full Moon Eclipse in at least 370 years.

Don't stare at it. You'll go blind.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by zm1283

So if a player secures a loose ball lying flat on his back and lifts his left shoulder blade and left butt cheek off the floor to pass to a teammate, that is "rolling over" and you're going to call a travel?

I'm with Nevada on this one.

#1, lifting the shoulder has nothing to do with it. He can sit up if he chooses to.

#2, If he rolls over on his side, it's traveling. Nowhere did you read that I said it was traveling to lift a butt cheek. Please don't make things up. You lose cedibility, if you have any.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#1, lifting the shoulder has nothing to do with it. He can sit up if he chooses to.

If I lift my left shoulder and left butt cheek off the floor, I'm not lying flat on my back anymore, so that would be rolling onto my side, would it not?

#2, If he rolls over on his side, it's traveling. Nowhere did you read that I said it was traveling to lift a butt cheek. Please don't make things up. You lose cedibility, if you have any.

The bolded part is your opinion of course.

I explained to someone else in my next post that I was being somewhat sarcastic, but the point still holds true. I'm not making things up. If you lay flat on your back and start to roll to your right by lifting your left shoulder and left butt cheek off the floor, you're going to be on your side rather quickly.

I don't need you to determine if I have credibility or not. There is no way to know by a message board if people are credible or not. I imagine there are some pretty subpar officials who post on here all the time who are held in high esteem, and some very good officials who hardly ever post on here.