Violation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The idea is to call the violation as soon as player leaves the court so you don't have to call a T when they return.

I'm confused too, Tim. what rule are you going to use the call the "T" when they return? You can't use 10-3-2 because that's only applicable to players who are legally OOB, not illegally OOB.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm confused too, Tim. what rule are you going to use the call the "T" when they return? You can't use 10-3-2 because that's only applicable to players who are legally OOB, not illegally OOB.

4-19-14
An unsporting foul is a non-contact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

10-3-6 -
note the language "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:"

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

4-19-14
An unsporting foul is a non-contact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

10-3-6 -
note the language "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:"

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

Rule 10-3-6 and 4-19-14 are deliberately left open-ended by the rulesmakers because you couldn't possibly list every unsporting act you might encounter. So it is true that you could maybe stretch things a heckuva lot and assess a "T" in this case using those rules. However doing that is going against the purpose and intent of the rule imo. And methinks you might have one heckuva time trying to sell that call to anybody else also. When they changed the call for the exact play in the original post back in 2005-06 from a technical foul to a violation, they did so because they felt that not enough officials were calling the "T" because the penalty was too extreme. They lessened the penalty to a violation so more of us would start calling this kind of play. And it has worked imo. So, what you're suggesting is almost like going back to the original rule. Basically, you're advocating changing the penalty for the illegal act just because an official was late calling it. I'd suggest a better idea would be to still call the violation when the player came back in, even though that call might be way late. That still will satisfy the purpose and intent of the rule imo. Thoughts?

From the 2005-06 rulebook...
LEAVING COURT FOR UNAUTHORIZED REASON CHANGED TO VIOLATION:
The rule for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason has been changed from a technical foul to a violation. Leaving the court during the course of play has been increasing with the former penalty of a technical foul not being assessed. Typically, the play is seen when an offensive player goes around a low screen, runs outside the end line and returns on the other side of the court free of their defender. The violation will be called as soon as the player leaves the court. The committee hopes that changing the penalty will increase the liklihood of the infraction being called and eliminate this tremendous advantage.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

..... So, what you're suggesting is almost like going back to the original rule. Basically, you're advocating changing the penalty for the illegal act just because an official was late calling it. I'd suggest a better idea would be to still call the violation when the player came back in, even though that call might be way late. That still will satisfy the purpose and intent of the rule imo. Thoughts? [/i]

Not at all. What I'm suggesting is that this we need to call this violation every time as soon as is practicable. Yes I understand that occasionally the whistle may be slightly delayed for a variety of reasons, but we shouldn't wait for some perceived advantage - going OOB to avoid a defender or screen is gaining an advantage.

Yes the link to 4-19-14 is tenuous, and I agree that it would be difficult to sell, but it is there. I agree that even late, the violation would be the better call.

Would I T a player for this? No, but I'm not going to wait to see why they left the court either - as soon as I see them illegally OOB I'm going to blow the whistle. This isn't a judgment or advantage/disadvantage call - it's no different than a player with the ball stepping on a boundary line - we should call it every time.

Besides, things were a little dull here and I decided to stir it up a little - looks like it worked! I figured chseagle need a little rest.....

I did actually have this call result in a T once last season. Player went OOB to get around a defender & I called the violation. His coach stood up and screamed "You're the only two in the gym that know that rule - you're just trying to make us lose!" He got the T.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Besides, things were a little dull here and I decided to stir it up a little - looks like it worked! I figured chseagle need a little rest.....

Bad Tim!

Bad, bad Tim.

Fwiw, I agree with what you just wrote also.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

That's why they made it a violation, so we could/would make them stop doing it. One could make the same argument about a player intentionally palming the ball on his dribble to gain an advantage. Try calling a T for that.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

Right, it needs to be called right away, like any other violation. If the guy above palmed the dribble, beat his defender, then dribbled it off his foot and out of bounds, that also would be a moot point. But if he beats his man and is about to score the winning basket, it still ain't a technical foul.

[Pantherdreams]

SO as I understand it, and my understanding is limited to FIBA which says something . . .

If a defender comes out to help and try to draw a charge, if they were to put their foot on the end line/sideline purposefully they would be out of bounds and committing a violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

SO as I understand it, and my understanding is limited to FIBA which says something . . .

If a defender comes out to help and try to draw a charge, if they were to put their foot on the end line/sideline purposefully they would be out of bounds and committing a violation?

My understanding is this is meant for players completely leaving the court; not stepping on the line.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

4-19-14
An unsporting foul is a non-contact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

10-3-6 -
note the language "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:"

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

There's no point in stretching 10-3-6 here, just call the violation per rule. We have late whistles on fouls, travels, and even OOB lines all the time. My late whistle does not mean the player was legally OOB; it just means my whistle was late.

Sometimes their time OOB is so short it's almost impossible to call it right away.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

10-3-6 -
note the language "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:"

This just doesn't apply unless that player is running out a door, down the hall, and back in at the other end of the court.

Running OOB near the court is clear a violation and a violation only. 10-3-6 should not be applied to things already covered in a different rule.