Violation?

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

The fans are experts at the 3 second rule.

You're lucky, the ones around here are "experts" at every rule!

[jTheUmp]

Had this happen in a game of mine a couple of weeks back. 9th grade Boys, A2 ran OOB on the endline for about 5-6 steps before coming back inbounds to receive a pass.

Partner whistled for the violation (I was the Trail, so I didn't see it happen). Coach went nuts (of course, he was "making comments himself" all night). As my partner was about to administer the throw-in, A2 decided to add in his own comment "You gotta learn the rules, ref". WHACK.

[johnsonboys03]

I am an official...and actually usually pride myself on studying the rule book. I'm only a second year official, but that's not an excuse. I should stop listening to ppl that don't quote the rules to me...I broke my own rule!

Thanks for the imput. I got lazy on this one and asked before researching!

[bainsey]

A question for the vets.

If you see an offensive player running OOB, do you generally whistle it immediately, or wait until he gains an advantage of it (i.e., gets the ball)?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Had this happen in a game of mine a couple of weeks back. 9th grade Boys, A2 ran OOB on the endline for about 5-6 steps before coming back inbounds to receive a pass.

Partner whistled for the violation (I was the Trail, so I didn't see it happen). Coach went nuts (of course, he was "making comments himself" all night). As my partner was about to administer the throw-in, A2 decided to add in his own comment "You gotta learn the rules, ref". WHACK.

The action you describe on the part of A2 is still a T if you don't catch it until he comes back inbounds to receive the pass (4-19-14 & 10-3-6). The idea is to call the violation as soon as player leaves the court so you don't have to call a T when they return. It's also a T for a player to purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning to the court after being legally out of bounds. (10-3-2).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The action you describe on the part of A2 is still a T if you don't catch it until he comes back inbounds to receive the pass (4-19-14 & 10-3-6). The idea is to call the violation as soon as player leaves the court so you don't have to call a T when they return.

Three words.


Don't think so.

[APG]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The action you describe on the part of A2 is still a T if you don't catch it until he comes back inbounds to receive the pass (4-19-14 & 10-3-6). The idea is to call the violation as soon as player leaves the court so you don't have to call a T when they return. It's also a T for a player to purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning to the court after being legally out of bounds. (10-3-2).

You are incorrect. The action is leaving for an unauthorized reason period. You can't apply the bolded portion because the player was never legally out of bounds. He was out of bounds for an unauthorized reason which is not a legal reason to be out of bounds. That portion applies to a thrower who decides he wants to hang out of bounds after the throw-in has been completed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I am an official...and actually usually pride myself on studying the rule book. I'm only a second year official, but that's not an excuse. I should stop listening to ppl that don't quote the rules to me...I broke my own rule!

Thanks for the imput. I got lazy on this one and asked before researching!

Great, great attitude. Big ups!

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You are incorrect. The action is leaving for an unauthorized reason period. You can't apply the bolded portion because the player was never legally out of bounds. He was out of bounds for an unauthorized reason which is not a legal reason to be out of bounds. That portion applies to a thrower who decides he wants to hang out of bounds after the throw-in has been completed.

Never said it did - I specifically said it applied to a player legally out of bounds. That said, ask yourself if the throw in is the only situation where a player can be legally out of bounds.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The idea is to call the violation as soon as player leaves the court so you don't have to call a T when they return.

I'm confused too, Tim. what rule are you going to use the call the "T" when they return? You can't use 10-3-2 because that's only applicable to players who are legally OOB, not illegally OOB.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The action you describe on the part of A2 is still a T if you don't catch it until he comes back inbounds to receive the pass.

Ah no, it's not. It's a violation, period. It doesn't matter if he gets inbounds before you blow the whistle. You're wrong.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Never said it did - I specifically said it applied to a player legally out of bounds. That said, ask yourself if the throw in is the only situation where a player can be legally out of bounds.

Nope, it's not. But that doesn't make you right on your interpretation of the rule.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm confused too, Tim. what rule are you going to use the call the "T" when they return? You can't use 10-3-2 because that's only applicable to players who are legally OOB, not illegally OOB.

4-19-14
An unsporting foul is a non-contact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

10-3-6 -
note the language "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:"

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

4-19-14
An unsporting foul is a non-contact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

10-3-6 -
note the language "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:"

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

Rule 10-3-6 and 4-19-14 are deliberately left open-ended by the rulesmakers because you couldn't possibly list every unsporting act you might encounter. So it is true that you could maybe stretch things a heckuva lot and assess a "T" in this case using those rules. However doing that is going against the purpose and intent of the rule imo. And methinks you might have one heckuva time trying to sell that call to anybody else also. When they changed the call for the exact play in the original post back in 2005-06 from a technical foul to a violation, they did so because they felt that not enough officials were calling the "T" because the penalty was too extreme. They lessened the penalty to a violation so more of us would start calling this kind of play. And it has worked imo. So, what you're suggesting is almost like going back to the original rule. Basically, you're advocating changing the penalty for the illegal act just because an official was late calling it. I'd suggest a better idea would be to still call the violation when the player came back in, even though that call might be way late. That still will satisfy the purpose and intent of the rule imo. Thoughts?

From the 2005-06 rulebook...
LEAVING COURT FOR UNAUTHORIZED REASON CHANGED TO VIOLATION:
The rule for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason has been changed from a technical foul to a violation. Leaving the court during the course of play has been increasing with the former penalty of a technical foul not being assessed. Typically, the play is seen when an offensive player goes around a low screen, runs outside the end line and returns on the other side of the court free of their defender. The violation will be called as soon as the player leaves the court. The committee hopes that changing the penalty will increase the liklihood of the infraction being called and eliminate this tremendous advantage.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

The FED has unequivocally stated that the game is to be played within the confines of the court. If a player intentionally leaves the court & returns to gain an advantage, that is clearly not in accordance with the spirit of fair play and a violation of 4-19-14.

That's why they made it a violation, so we could/would make them stop doing it. One could make the same argument about a player intentionally palming the ball on his dribble to gain an advantage. Try calling a T for that.

As I said, the violation needs to be called right away, every time (except as specified in 6-7-9-d & 9.3.3 Sit D). If it is, then this becomes a moot point. If we wait until he comes back on to the court & gets the ball, then we have different circumstances - and it's the fault of the official for not calling the violation when they should have.

Right, it needs to be called right away, like any other violation. If the guy above palmed the dribble, beat his defender, then dribbled it off his foot and out of bounds, that also would be a moot point. But if he beats his man and is about to score the winning basket, it still ain't a technical foul.