Tripping from Behind

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know more about rocket science than I do about NCAA officiating, but isn't there a trip signal for NCAA women? Or is it a hit in the head signal? OK. Let's get back to talking about propulsion systems.

There is a trip signal in both NCAA mechanics.

Peace

[bainsey]

Wouldn't we consider tripping a form of illegal contact?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Wouldn't we consider tripping a form of illegal contact?

I don't think the question is whether it is illegal and a foul but what signal should be used.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't think the question is whether it is illegal and a foul but what signal should be used.

Actually, that's my point.

Is tripping a type of blocking? Typically not. Pushing? No. Holding? No. Hand Check? No.

That leaves "illegal use," or sometimes, "illegal." While the full description is "illegal use of hand(s)," we typically say the first one or two words when reporting the foul. Tripping is definitely illegal, so why not go with that?

[Welpe]

The definition of blocking seems to fit pretty well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Actually, that's my point.

Is tripping a type of blocking? Typically not. Pushing? No. Holding? No. Hand Check? No.

That leaves "illegal use," or sometimes, "illegal." While the full description is "illegal use of hand(s)," we typically say the first one or two words when reporting the foul. Tripping is definitely illegal, so why not go with that?

Don't say anything; just give the block signal and move on. No need to verbalize the "type" of foul. Everyone will know what happened anyway.

[Texas Aggie]

Type of foul signals are all but obsolete in terms of usefulness. We still need to give them, but they are worthless. The only real exceptions are block/charge, something else that differentiates offense and defense, or situations where a foul caused a violation by the other team and you are calling the foul. I.e. bump caused a travel and you signal for a foul and a push (to sell it).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Type of foul signals are all but obsolete in terms of usefulness. We still need to give them, but they are worthless. The only real exceptions are block/charge, something else that differentiates offense and defense, or situations where a foul caused a violation by the other team and you are calling the foul. I.e. bump caused a travel and you signal for a foul and a push (to sell it).

My only question here is the use of the word "obsolete," which implies that at one time they were more useful than they are now. Were they?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't say anything; just give the block signal and move on. No need to verbalize the "type" of foul. Everyone will know what happened anyway.

I do not necessarily agree with that. I have giving just a signal only to be asked "What did he do?" That being said I do verbalize my signal, but I just do not keep it to "push" or "block." I have said "tripping" while giving one of the signals.

I have found I get fewer questions after I report a foul.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Wouldn't we consider tripping a form of illegal contact?

The answer to that is we can consider tripping to be either illegal contact or incidental contact, depending on our judgment using the criteria outlined in NFHS rules 4-19-1 and 4-27.

Freddy in the original post of this thread though had already told us that the trip to be considered was illegal contact, using those exact words.

Does that answer your question?

And for my own personal edification, do you hold a Ph.D in obfuscation?

[bainsey]

Nothing obfuscatory here, JR. You simply missed my point.

Originally Posted by Freddy

Question: With no official mechanic for "tripping", which signal should properly be used when reporting foul to the table...

In the NFHS book, I see five options:
*Blocking
*Pushing
*Holding
*Hand Check
*Illegal Use

Does one push when tripping? Or hold? Or hand check? None of the above, typically. Blocking, I can see, sometimes.

If given the choices, I would say tripping mostly goes to illegal use. (If it were incidental, there would be no whistle, anyway.) It certainly isn't the perfect signal under the circumstances, but I can't find a better one of those five.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Nothing obfuscatory here, JR. You simply missed my point.


In the NFHS book, I see five options:
*Blocking
*Pushing
*Holding
*Hand Check
*Illegal Use

Does one push when tripping? Or hold? Or hand check? None of the above, typically. Blocking, I can see, sometimes.

If given the choices, I would say tripping mostly goes to illegal use. (If it were incidental, there would be no whistle, anyway.) It certainly isn't the perfect signal under the circumstances, but I can't find a better one of those five.

I'm not sure that I would use the "illegal use" or "hack" signal when reporting a trip. That signal implies the defender did something illegal with his/her arms. I would use the "block" or "push" signals because those two are things that can be done with body parts other than the hand/arm.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Nothing obfuscatory here, JR. You simply missed my point.

Lot of that going around lately. Just put it down to ol' JR being dumb as a post, bainsey. Btw the answer to your question "Wouldn't we consider tripping a form of illegal contact? is yes.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Nothing obfuscatory here, JR. You simply missed my point.


In the NFHS book, I see five options:
*Blocking
*Pushing
*Holding
*Hand Check
*Illegal Use

Does one push when tripping? Or hold? Or hand check? None of the above, typically. Blocking, I can see, sometimes.

If given the choices, I would say tripping mostly goes to illegal use. (If it were incidental, there would be no whistle, anyway.) It certainly isn't the perfect signal under the circumstances, but I can't find a better one of those five.

Can't be "Illegal Use"...that is short of "Illegal use of hands (arms)".

It is blocking as it is done with a leg extended outside of the player's LGP or plain legal position. If it is not outside of the player's LGP/legal position, it is not a foul.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It is blocking as it is done with a leg extended outside of the player's LGP or plain legal position.

If the trip occurred while blocking, then it's certainly blocking. But, tripping from behind ain't blocking.

Yes, "illegal" is short for "illegal use of hands." But, I certainly don't say the entire phrase, nor do I say "hack." "Illegal" is the only applicable one left, IMO.