I think chseagle was my timer tonight

[chseagle]

Generally, rosters are copied from one scorebook to another not from a roster supplied by the coach, except for that team's roster either from the coach's memory or a previous game.

As I understood the rules, the rosters are to be in the scorebook(s) by the ten minute mark in order to be supplied, not just a paper lying next to the scorebook for the scorer to copy from.

Just trying to get clarification, as I have seen it called as an administrative T before.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Like was said earlier, this was a book keeping error. All a team is required to do is provide a proper roster by the 10 minute mark. If this is done, then the team has fulfilled its requirement. If we went by how you think the rule is administered, literally every game would start with a technical foul against the visitors or at some point a number would have to be added because the home team "forgot" to add the number.

Now if the book properly copied all the names and numbers from the supplied roster, and THEN there had to be an addition after the 10 minute mark, there would would have an administrative technical foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Generally, rosters are copied from one scorebook to another not from a roster supplied by the coach, except for that team's roster either from the coach's memory or a previous game.

As I understood the rules, the rosters are to be in the scorebook(s) by the ten minute mark in order to be supplied, not just a paper lying next to the scorebook for the scorer to copy from.

Just trying to get clarification, as I have seen it called as an administrative T before.

You've seen a T called when the coach has supplied the list, but the scorer has not yet copied it at the 10 minute mark?

Seriously, he's putting us on.

[stiffler3492]

Eagle...You have a gross misunderstanding of this rule. That is all.

[chseagle]

Due to the fact that the roster (player was not listed, though a printed roster was presented with the player listed) was not listed in the official scorebook, as it was on the printed roster, yes it was called.

Concerning the adding of the player into the scorebook, the R (at about 10 minute mark pregame), comes to table & verifies that the number of players warming up for each team match that which is in the scorebook (in the OP somehow V13 was either not counted or not within the visible confines of the court) so there was one more player in uniform than what the scorebook showed. At the time the count was done it should of been noticed about V13 missing from the scorebook, it was not. Since V13 had to be added to the scorebook when coming in to substitute according to the rules it is an administrative T.

10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member’s number in the scorebook.
When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction?
RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

Originally Posted by just another ref

You've seen a T called when the coach has supplied the list, but the scorer has not yet copied it at the 10 minute mark?

Seriously, he's putting us on.

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Due to the fact that the roster was not listed in the official scorebook, yes it was called.

Concerning the adding of the player into the scorebook, the R (at about 10 minute mark pregame), comes to table & verifies that the number of players warming up for each team match that which is in the scorebook (in the OP somehow V13 was either not counted or not within the visible confines of the court) so there was one more player in uniform than what the scorebook showed. At the time the count was done it should of been noticed about V13 missing from the scorebook, it was not. Since V13 had to be added to the scorebook when coming in to substitute according to the rules it is an administrative T.

10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member’s number in the scorebook.
When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction?
RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

These two situations are completely different. In the case play, the coach erred. In your situation, the scorer erred. One causes a technical foul, the other causes embarrassment.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You've seen a T called when the coach has supplied the list, but the scorer has not yet copied it at the 10 minute mark?

Seriously, he's putting us on.

Many years ago at a HS varsity game, we were the visiting team and the home scorer for the varsity game was nowhere to be found as the pre-game clock slowly wound down. The referees told our coach that if our roster was not in the home book by the 10 minute mark, it was going to be T on us.

[chseagle]

If no one was available to be home scorer, why did they not just make the visitor book the official scorer?

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Many years ago at a HS varsity game, we were the visiting team and the home scorer for the varsity game was nowhere to be found as the pre-game clock slowly wound down. The referees told our coach that if our roster was not in the home book by the 10 minute mark, it was going to be T on us.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

If no one was available to be home scorer, why did they not just make the visitor book the official scorer?

Because the same refs who would hold the coach responsible for that play are the ones who don't know you can appoint the V book as official. The fact is these guys didn't know the rule.

[BktBallRef]

UPDATE: Mr. Timer has been relieved of his duties, permanently.

I called the assignor on Tuesday and shared the situation with him. I learned that we were the third crew to have problems with this timer this season, which is only in it's 4th week. Since the rules state that the referee must approve the timer, the assignor has contacted the A.D. and told him that no referee from our association will approve this man as the timer. They have 3 weeks before the next home game. He included a copy of the NFHS instructions for timers and scorers so they might begin training a new timer.

[chseagle]

The Instructions for & Duties of Scorer/Timer for Basketball Games is very useful as a training tool.

Is there not someone that does Sub-V timer there that might be able to step up?

NFHS Rule 2-4-3 is the rule you're quoting.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

UPDATE: Mr. Timer has been relieved of his duties, permanently.

I called the assignor on Tuesday and shared the situation with him. I learned that we were the third crew to have problems with this timer this season, which is only in it's 4th week. Since the rules state that the referee must approve the timer, the assignor has contacted the A.D. and told him that no referee from our association will approve this man as the timer. They have 3 weeks before the next home game. He included a copy of the NFHS instructions for timers and scorers so they might begin training a new timer.

[zm1283]

I had my first hint of a problem with someone from the table in my game last night. No problems like the OP though. The scorer (Who when we introduced ourselves before the game let us know she was the superintendent and administrator on duty) kept looking away from us when we reported fouls. She would either be looking at someone else at the table or already looking down recording who she though the foul was on when we were reporting. Nothing to have someone replaced over, but rather annoying to say the least. At least the board operator/timer was making eye contact with us every time so he could fill her in if she missed something.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Generally, rosters are copied from one scorebook to another not from a roster supplied by the coach, except for that team's roster either from the coach's memory or a previous game.

As I understood the rules, the rosters are to be in the scorebook(s) by the ten minute mark in order to be supplied, not just a paper lying next to the scorebook for the scorer to copy from.

Just trying to get clarification, as I have seen it called as an administrative T before.

And we've given you clarification. Your understanding is wrong.

The coach is required to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate. (10-1-1)

The coach did that. The fact that both scorers failed to write #13's name in their books is a bookkeeping error. Therefore, the team is NOT penalized.

[chseagle]

I'm used to the fact that 10-1-1 means all names/numbers are listed in the scorebook, as that is what I am used to is all I was getting at.

It is that I was thinking the intent & purpose is different compared to what is the norm concerning what I have witnessed/experienced.

Unfortunately different people see the purpose & intent differently

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And we've given you clarification. Your understanding is wrong.

The coach is required to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate. (10-1-1)

The coach did that. The fact that both scorers failed to write #13's name in their books is a bookkeeping error. Therefore, the team is NOT penalized.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

It is that I was thinking the intent & purpose is different compared to what is the norm concerning what I have witnessed/experienced.

The intent and purpose is that the coach provide the scorer a team list prior to the 10 minute mark, not that the book be completed prior to the 10 minute mark.

Unfortunately different people see the purpose & intent differently

Fortunately, it makes no difference what a timer sees as the intent and purpose of the rule. It is not any part of the timer's job to do or say anything.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Unfortunately different people see the purpose & intent differently

Fortunately the people that count...the officials responsible for administering the rules...know the correct purpose and intent of the rule they are administering. Unfortunately though, some clueless timers won't accept that fact. Also unfortunately, those same clueless timers can't get through their thick heads that they have NOTHING to do with officiating the game. It doesn't matter one bit if any timer sees the purpose and intent of a rule differently than an official. The bottom line is that you don't get a vote. And if you want a say, well, you'd better know your audience. A lot of officials will simply tell the AD to get 'em a timer that knows enough to just time. I'm one of them.

Iow stick to what you're supposed to do and let us do what we're supposed to do.