I think chseagle was my timer tonight

[chseagle]

Kinda odd that the player was listed on the roster yet never was listed in either book.This sounds like a HTBT as I would of responded diffrently than that timer.

Question however, since the player was not listed in either book yet the V HC said the scorer was supplied the roster, how could that not be an Administrative T as the name/number have to be added?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

GV Game, middle of the 2nd quarter, horn sounds. I go over and the scorers inform me that #13 is not in either book. I ask for the roster supplied by the visiting coach. There she is, #13 list on the roster. No technical, add her to both books, let's play.

Timer says no, it's a technical foul.

What?

No, it's not a technical foul. The coach supplied a roster with the player listed. This is a scorer's error. Now let's play.

I walk away. Next thing I hear is the timer yelling to the home coach and the fans behind the home bench that it's a technical foul but I don't know the rule and won't call it.

I walk back to the table ask quietly the timer. "Is there a problem?" "Yes, it's a technical foul." I explained it once more and told him that was the end of the discussion. As I walked away again, he yelled, "YES SIR!" at which time I turned and asked where I could find the principal or AD.

I explained the problem and asked him if he had another ECO. He said no but asked if he could talk to him and take care of the problem. He did and we had no further problem.

Some people just don't get it.

[Welpe]

There's nothing HTBT about this. The timer's job is to flip the switches and keep his mouth shut.

[chseagle]

IOW Had to have been there to see everything unfold in person.

I would never have insisted it was a T, I would of politely asked & after hearing the answer gone on with duties/responsibilities, not turned it into a soap opera like the idiot in the OP did.

Originally Posted by Welpe

There's nothing HTBT about this. The timer's job is to flip the switches and keep his mouth shut.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Kinda odd that the player was listed on the roster yet never was listed in either book.This sounds like a HTBT as I would of responded diffrently than that timer.

Why would you respond at all? It' absolutely none of your concern as the timer.

Question however, since the player was not listed in either book yet the V HC said the scorer was supplied the roster, how could that not be an Administrative T as the name/number have to be added?

Where did I say the V HC said a word?

The visiting team's roster was lying on the table. The visting scorer missed #13 on the roster. The home scorer copied the visitor's book instead of the roster. BOTH scorers were in error, not the V HC. It was a bookkeeping error whcih can be corrected at anytime.

Originally Posted by Welpe

There's nothing HTBT about this. The timer's job is to flip the switches and keep his mouth shut.

+1

[just another ref]

Seriously, he's gotta be putting us on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Seriously, he's gotta be putting us on.

No, going by his posting history he is that clueless. And you can't tell him anything because he just doesn't comprehend what you're telling him. Why expect anything different from him?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Seriously, he's putting us on.

Ya know, I never considered that........

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No, going by his posting history he is that clueless. And you can't tell him anything because he just doesn't comprehend what you're telling him. Why expect anything different from him?

THAT I considered!

[Jurassic Referee]

NFHS rule 10-1-1- "A team shall not fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate...at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time."

NFHS rule 10-1-2(b)- "After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1: add a name to the team list."

Chseagle, you're looking at the wrong rule. Did the team supply the scorer with a list that included player #13 as required under R10-1-1? Yes! Did the scorer have to add a name to the team list that was given to him? No! What you want us to do is assess a penalty under rule 10-1-2(b) for a team failing to comply with rule 10-1-1. We can't do that because at no time was there a violation of rule 10-1-1. The team DID supply a correct team list that included player #13, and did so in a timely fashion. And you can't give a team a "T" for adding a name to a team list when that name was already on their team list.

The scorer screwed up, not the team. And any know-nothing timer that tries to involve themself in a situation that they simply do not understand should be banished from the kingdom.

Now......enough is enough and too much is plenty. Zip it!

[mbyron]

I had a partner ask me last night during warmups how "strict" I was about having all the names in the book by 10 minutes. I "reminded" him that the rule does not require having all the names in the book; it requires that the team provide the scorers with a roster.

He said, "Oh, that's right."

[just another ref]

And this part cannot be overstated: Even if there is no list submitted at all, it is not any part of the timer's job to do or say anything.

[chseagle]

Like I stated it was my understanding of the rules, as I am used to the rosters having to be in the scorebook by the 10:00 minute mark, not just a printed list outside the scorebook.

It goes to show you differences in areas & training in positions.

Of course I know it's never ALWAYS going to happen for the Sub-V games where I've had my training as scorer. However I have done my share of table operations for V games & have seen it happen before & have been to enough V games as either bench personnel/security/table to have seen it happen that a player is "accidently" forgotten to be listed yet an administrative T has still been called.

As stated before I have, as has my wife, seen it called as a Technical before as not always are printed rosters correct as to names/numbers or a printed roster is not supplied to the scorer.

[BillyMac]

And it ain't even about us.

chseagle: Check out page seven of the NFHS rulebook. It doesn't have a number on it, but it's still a rule, a very important rule: "It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."

One intent and purpose of the "ten minute rule" is to ensure that rosters are written in the scorebooks before the game starts, so that we're not holding up the jump ball to start the game while the table is copying names, and numbers, into their respective scorebooks. Another intent and purpose is so that we don't have to hold up the game after the game starts to add a players name, and number, into the book. Officials, players, coaches, and fans want the kids play basketball, they don't want to watch scorekeepers making additions, or corrections, in the scorebook. And they certainly don't want to watch us officiating a free throw contest before clock actually starts.

I've been doing this for thirty years. Do you know how many times the book hasn't been "ready" at the ten minute mark? If I got a dollar every time it happened, I could buy a round, or two, of adult beverages after the game for all my pals. Do you know how many technical fouls I've seen charged for the book not being "ready" at the ten minute mark? None. I've officiated over 700 high school games, and, probably, three, or four times, as many lower level games. Do you know how many games I've started with something other than a jump ball? None.

As an official, you just don't want to start the game with "administrative" free throws. Officials will always bend over backwards to work with coaches, and the table crew, within the intent and purpose of the rules, to start the game with a jump ball, the way, God, and Dr. Naismith, intended it. In thirty years, I have found all head coaches, and all table crew members, to fully agree with me.

Now, would someone please help me down from this soapbox. I'm getting dizzy up here.

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Kinda odd that the player was listed on the roster yet never was listed in either book.This sounds like a HTBT as I would of responded diffrently than that timer.

Question however, since the player was not listed in either book yet the V HC said the scorer was supplied the roster, how could that not be an Administrative T as the name/number have to be added?

It's not a technical because the official book failed to correctly copy the properly supplied roster. We're not going to penalize a team because the book failed to copy the supplied roster. If we did this, every game would start with a technical because the book "forgot" to copy a number from the visiting team.

[chseagle]

I was asking about the Administrative T as the name had to be added to both scorebooks although it was initially supplied.

Since the name/number was added after the officials checked the rosters in both books, it would be considered an Administrative T.

"Administrative:
Providing rosters; starters; numbers; changes,
additions, etc.; team not ready to start half, TV
monitor, electronic communication; not
occupying assigned bench; more than five
players; excess time-out; violation after team
warning for delay; all players not returning at
same time after time-out or intermission (10-1)"

Just trying to figure out how it would not be considered as such since having to add the player, even though the roster was supplied.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

It's not a technical because the official book failed to correctly copy the properly supplied roster. We're not going to penalize a team because the book failed to copy the supplied roster. If we did this, every game would start with a technical because the book "forgot" to copy a number from the visiting team.

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I was asking about the Administrative T as the name had to be added to both scorebooks although it was initially supplied.

Since the name/number was added after the officials checked the rosters in both books, it would be considered an Administrative T.

"Administrative:
Providing rosters; starters; numbers; changes,
additions, etc.; team not ready to start half, TV
monitor, electronic communication; not
occupying assigned bench; more than five
players; excess time-out; violation after team
warning for delay; all players not returning at
same time after time-out or intermission (10-1)"

Just trying to figure out how it would not be considered as such since having to add the player, even though the roster was supplied.

Like was said earlier, this was a book keeping error. All a team is required to do is provide a proper roster by the 10 minute mark. If this is done, then the team has fulfilled its requirement. If we went by how you think the rule is administered, literally every game would start with a technical foul against the visitors or at some point a number would have to be added because the home team "forgot" to add the number.

Now if the book properly copied all the names and numbers from the supplied roster, and THEN there had to be an addition after the 10 minute mark, there would would have an administrative technical foul.