Trainwreck, what's the call

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Charging foul on A1. B1 got to a spot legally first and sounds like he respected the elements of time and distance.

No shots, TC foul.

That's one of my issues. When does B3 become an active factor in the play and become a guard (or screener) and time and distance start to apply? When he first takes position, when the ball gets inbounded, when the pass is released, when A2 approaches or when A2 touches the ball???
B3 was passive during this play til he got splattered by A2, and I consider that he didn't allow A2 the requisite time and distance, ergo Block.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by justacoach

When does B3 become an active factor in the play?

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" or to be sarcastic (unusual for me, I know). But I honestly have no idea what this question means.

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" or to be sarcastic (unusual for me, I know). But I honestly have no idea what this question means.

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

I can appreciate that you are serious, I am as well.

Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?
When do we consider B3, with his generic rights to his spot on the floor, to have morphed into a guarder (or screener) of A2 and for B3 to be obliged to yield time and distance to A2, the guardee, or as I prefer, the screenee? see 4-23, 4&5
I contend that B3 has his status changed from innocuously taking up space to a defender (or screener) based on the actions of A2 that draw B3 into the action. When B3 was drawn into the action he impeded A2's continued pursuit of the muffed pass by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Conversely, if A2 makes a clean catch, PC all the way

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" or to be sarcastic (unusual for me, I know). But I honestly have no idea what this question means.

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

Agree with Scrapper1. Remember that every player is allowed a spot on the floor, provided he obtained that spot legally. I see nothing in the original post that would indicate he obtained his spot illegally.

Time and distance applies from the time the guard estabishes his position. Since B3 was stationary when the ball was inbounded and never moved, then he gave A2 time and distance to avoid contact.

Charging, team control foul on A2.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

And the rules citation to back that statement up is NFHS rule 4-23-1--"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." B3 did just that and violated no rules before or after attaining that spot. Forget about guarding, etc. B3 simply had a legal spot on the court.

You're over-thinking the play.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And the rules citation to back that statement up is NFHS rule 4-23-1--"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." B3 did just that and violated no rules before or after attaining that spot. Forget about guarding, etc. B3 simply had a legal spot on the court.

You're over-thinking the play.

Humor me, please...
Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?

[reffish]

Again, you are over thinking the play. B3 is a defender as team A is on offense ergo players from team B are on defense; B3 is a defender. He can also be a screener, and that status can be on offense or defense. You made the point that if A2 caught the ball and crashed into B3, then you call PC. The only difference between your block or PC is the status of the ball. This action beyond the control of B3, does not impact the status of B3. He is still legal. PC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?

Justa, under the rules his status simply doesn't matter except for whether B3 has established or didn't establish a legal position on the court prior to the contact. It's the same principle as any player on the floor rebounding. All 10 players on the court can establish a legal position during that rebound and their opponents can't run into 'em or push 'em away from that position once it was legally established.

[GoodwillRef]

Why would this be a team control foul? No team control in high school on throw-ins and if the player muffed the ball when never had team control...shoot the bonus.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Why would this be a team control foul? No team control in high school on throw-ins and if the player muffed the ball when never had team control...shoot the bonus.

A1 inbounds ball to A5.
A5 throws a lead pass over the head of wing player A2 who runs toward the division line, looking backward while trying to receive pass.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Why would this be a team control foul? No team control in high school on throw-ins and if the player muffed the ball when never had team control...shoot the bonus.

This part.

Originally Posted by justacoach

A1 inbounds ball to A5.

A5 threw the pass to A3.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Humor me, please...
Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?

Neither, but it doesn't matter.

You could, I suppose, have a case for a no-call. If B3 wasn't paying attention, and if the contact wasn't "too bad" you *might* be able to say that B3 wasn't prevented from "normal offensive or defensive maneuvers".

It CANNOT be a foul on B3.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Humor me, please...
Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?

Your question is intended to imply that he doesn't become a "defender" or "screener" until an opponent with the ball makes contact with him. You're fishing for a way to justify calling a foul on B3.

As the others have said: stop fishing. The time/distance restrictions on screeners apply when the screener is moving, not when an opponent is approaching a stationary player.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your question is intended to imply that he doesn't become a "defender" or "screener" until an opponent with the ball makes contact with him. You're fishing for a way to justify calling a foul on B3.

As the others have said: stop fishing. The time/distance restrictions on screeners apply when the screener is moving, not when an opponent is approaching a stationary player.

So, If A2 sets a blind screen and is not moving but does not give B2 a normal step, no foul on A2 because he is stationary? Or if, A2 moves into the path of B2 less than 2 steps in front of A2 but is stationary prior to contact, there is no foul on B2. When a player is moving without the ball time and distance are factors and the defense doesn't have to be moving. The defender must give them time and distance to avoid contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

So, If A2 sets a blind screen and is not moving but does not give B2 a normal step, no foul on A2 because he is stationary? Or if, A2 moves into the path of B2 less than 2 steps in front of A2 but is stationary prior to contact, there is no foul on B2. When a player is moving without the ball time and distance are factors and the defense doesn't have to be moving. The defender must give them time and distance to avoid contact.

True, and mbyron may have misspoken slightly. That said, the OP is a situation where it seems from his own description that far more than two steps were given from the time B3 took his position.