Trainwreck or OBS?

[cookie]

In NCAA rules, as R3 is heading hard for home AND F2 (not setting up in the baseline) is taken into the baseline by an incoming throw from the outfield and is just about to receive the throw (not in possession of the ball), both R3 and F2 collide inadvertently with each other sending the ball over toward the 3rd base dugout, is this regarded as OBS by F2 or just a trainwreck?

In OBR it would be a trainwreck; in FED probabably OBS. How does NCAA treat such a collision?

[jkumpire]

NCAA just took the OBR INT/OBS rule from and made it their own, with a few added points. So I would cal it a trainwreck based on your description. Here is the relevant material:

Rule 8-7, Collision Rule. SECTION 7. The rules committee is concerned about unnecessary and violent collisions with the catcher at home plate, and with infielders at all bases. The intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid such collisions whenever possible.

When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:

a. If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line with clear possession of the ball, the runner may make contact, slide into or make contact with a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base (plate). Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate.

(1) The runner must make an actual attempt to reach the base (plate).

(2) The runner may not attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder. Contact above the waist shall be judged by the umpire as an attempt by the runner to dislodge the ball.

(3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base without colliding.

(4) If the runner’s path to the base is blocked and (1), (2), and (3) are fulfilled, it is considered unavoidable contact.

PENALTIES:

(1) The runner must make an actual attempt to reach the base (plate).

If the runner attempted to dislodge the ball or initiated an avoidable collision, the runner shall be declared out, even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

(2) The runner may not attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder.

If the contact was flagrant or malicious before the runner’s touching the plate, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

(3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base without colliding.

If the contact was flagrant or malicious after the runner had touched the base (plate), the runner will be ruled safe and ejected from the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. If this occurs at any base other than home, the offending team may replace the runner.

If the contact was after a preceding runner had touched home plate, the preceding runner will be ruled safe. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the contact.

(4) If the runner’s path to the base is blocked and (1), (2), and (3) are fulfilled, it is considered unavoidable contact.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by cookie

In NCAA rules, as R3 is heading hard for home AND F2 (not setting up in the baseline) is taken into the baseline by an incoming throw from the outfield and is just about to receive the throw (not in possession of the ball), both R3 and F2 collide inadvertently with each other sending the ball over toward the 3rd base dugout, is this regarded as OBS by F2 or just a trainwreck?

In OBR it would be a trainwreck; in FED probabably OBS. How does NCAA treat such a collision?

The current NCAA OBS rule is similar to FED (fielder cannot block the base without the ball). This will change next year when NCAA adopts the OBR OBS rule (fielder can be in the act of fielding the ball and block the base (except on pickoff plays)).

NCAA also has a Collision Rule. The runner must be making a legitimate attempt to touch the plate (and not trying to dislodge the ball) or he is called out if he has not yet touched the plate, and can be ejected if the contact was flagrant or malicious. The NCAA will clarify this rule for next year by stipulating that contact above the waist initiated by the baserunner constitutes an attempt to dislodge the ball.

[cookie]

"...a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball..."

Thanks JK for taking the time to quote the section (Rule 8-7) from the 2010 NCAA Rule Book. I appreciate that very much. However, I do have access to the online NCAA Rule Book and had already read that section. My question really relates to F2 "not in clear possession of the ball"; F2 is moreso "in the act of fielding" the ball/throw, especially up the baseline, perhaps 5 to 10 feet from the plate where the throw took him and the collision (standing up) took place...

Is anyone saying/interpreting that a throw/ball just about to be received is considered "in clear possession of the ball?"

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cookie

Is anyone saying/interpreting that a throw/ball just about to be received is considered "in clear possession of the ball?"

No. This play would clearly have been obstruction under the current rules.

A few years ago, the NCAA reacted to the "block the base on the pickoff" play and changed the OBS rule. They (apparently) didn't get what they wanted, so essentially changed the rule back to what it was (the OBR rule) but added an exception for the pickoff play.

[kylejt]

If an errant throw takes a defender into the path of a runner, is there any rule set where this would be obstruction?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by cookie

"...a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball..."

Is anyone saying/interpreting that a throw/ball just about to be received is considered "in clear possession of the ball?"

You either have possession of the ball or you don't.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by kylejt

If an errant throw takes a defender into the path of a runner, is there any rule set where this would be obstruction?

LL (I think, based on what I've read on the variosu forums -- I don't do that level).

FED, if "total access" to the base is blocked by the defender.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

LL (I think, based on what I've read on the variosu forums -- I don't do that level).

FED, if "total access" to the base is blocked by the defender.

An errant throw in LL does NOT result in obstruction per the interpretation given in "Fairball" when the rule was changed to its present form.

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by kylejt

If an errant throw takes a defender into the path of a runner, is there any rule set where this would be obstruction?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

LL (I think, based on what I've read on the variosu forums -- I don't do that level).

FED, if "total access" to the base is blocked by the defender.

As I read Kyle's question - I was thinking of the classic F6 to F3 throw that pulls F3 down the line into the path of the BR...

LL: Trainwreck
Fed: OBS
NCAA: Trainwreck (current and 2011 revision)

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The current NCAA OBS rule is similar to FED (fielder cannot block the base without the ball). This will change next year when NCAA adopts the OBR OBS rule (fielder can be in the act of fielding the ball and block the base (except on pickoff plays)).

NCAA also has a Collision Rule. The runner must be making a legitimate attempt to touch the plate (and not trying to dislodge the ball) or he is called out if he has not yet touched the plate, and can be ejected if the contact was flagrant or malicious. The NCAA will clarify this rule for next year by stipulating that contact above the waist initiated by the baserunner constitutes an attempt to dislodge the ball.

dash I posted the new NCAA rules for 2011 and 2012 on umpire.org.. take a look.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Umpmazza

dash I posted the new NCAA rules for 2011 and 2012 on umpire.org.. take a look.

I did (and thanks for posting it). That's where I got the information for my post here. Did I get something wrong?

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I did (and thanks for posting it). That's where I got the information for my post here. Did I get something wrong?

no.. I just didnt know if you saw the changes..LOL