Trainwreck, what's the call

[justacoach]

Had the following play recently. Seeking guidance and advice

Both teams in double bonus

B is deployed in 3/4 court zone press

B3 is stationary at division line, 8 ft from sideline, as part of press defense defense

A1 inbounds ball to A5.

A5 throws a lead pass over the head of wing player A2 who runs toward the division line, looking backward while trying to receive pass. A2 muffs the pass and immediately trainwrecks with B3, who never left his spot

Your call

BTW, I had block on B3, A2 to FT line for bonus

Thanks

[APG]

Charging foul on A1. B1 got to a spot legally first and sounds like he respected the elements of time and distance.

Team control foul.

[The R]

Coach what did B3 do wrong?

[Scrapper1]

I agree that this can't be a foul on B3 if he "never left his spot", but. . .

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

B1 will be shooting 2 shots for the double bonus.

It's a team control foul, so no free throws.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree that this can't be a foul on B3 if he "never left his spot", but. . .


It's a team control foul, so no free throws.

I missed the part about the ball being already inbounded. Yes, it would be a team control foul.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Charging foul on A1. B1 got to a spot legally first and sounds like he respected the elements of time and distance.

No shots, TC foul.

That's one of my issues. When does B3 become an active factor in the play and become a guard (or screener) and time and distance start to apply? When he first takes position, when the ball gets inbounded, when the pass is released, when A2 approaches or when A2 touches the ball???
B3 was passive during this play til he got splattered by A2, and I consider that he didn't allow A2 the requisite time and distance, ergo Block.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by The R

Coach what did B3 do wrong?

Failed to allow time and distance to moving player without the ball
4-23-5, p 32 Rules, 10.6.11, p-94 Case

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by justacoach

When does B3 become an active factor in the play?

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" or to be sarcastic (unusual for me, I know). But I honestly have no idea what this question means.

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" or to be sarcastic (unusual for me, I know). But I honestly have no idea what this question means.

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

I can appreciate that you are serious, I am as well.

Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?
When do we consider B3, with his generic rights to his spot on the floor, to have morphed into a guarder (or screener) of A2 and for B3 to be obliged to yield time and distance to A2, the guardee, or as I prefer, the screenee? see 4-23, 4&5
I contend that B3 has his status changed from innocuously taking up space to a defender (or screener) based on the actions of A2 that draw B3 into the action. When B3 was drawn into the action he impeded A2's continued pursuit of the muffed pass by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Conversely, if A2 makes a clean catch, PC all the way

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not trying to play "gotcha" or to be sarcastic (unusual for me, I know). But I honestly have no idea what this question means.

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

Agree with Scrapper1. Remember that every player is allowed a spot on the floor, provided he obtained that spot legally. I see nothing in the original post that would indicate he obtained his spot illegally.

Time and distance applies from the time the guard estabishes his position. Since B3 was stationary when the ball was inbounded and never moved, then he gave A2 time and distance to avoid contact.

Charging, team control foul on A2.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If B3 is planted like a tree since last Tuesday, and somebody runs over him, it just can't be a foul on B3, regardless if that other player has the ball or not or saw B3 there or not.

And the rules citation to back that statement up is NFHS rule 4-23-1--"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." B3 did just that and violated no rules before or after attaining that spot. Forget about guarding, etc. B3 simply had a legal spot on the court.

You're over-thinking the play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by justacoach

That's one of my issues. When does B3 become an active factor in the play and become a guard (or screener) and time and distance start to apply? When he first takes position, when the ball gets inbounded, when the pass is released, when A2 approaches or when A2 touches the ball???
B3 was passive during this play til he got splattered by A2, and I consider that he didn't allow A2 the requisite time and distance, ergo Block.

The time/distance (if required) is measured from the very instant B3 gets to the spot. If A2 is more than 2 steps away at that point, it can't be a block. Sounds like A2 had several steps and a lot of time to go way around B3 but a bad pass led A2 right into B3. You got this one wrong.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And the rules citation to back that statement up is NFHS rule 4-23-1--"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." B3 did just that and violated no rules before or after attaining that spot. Forget about guarding, etc. B3 simply had a legal spot on the court.

You're over-thinking the play.

Humor me, please...
Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?

[reffish]

Again, you are over thinking the play. B3 is a defender as team A is on offense ergo players from team B are on defense; B3 is a defender. He can also be a screener, and that status can be on offense or defense. You made the point that if A2 caught the ball and crashed into B3, then you call PC. The only difference between your block or PC is the status of the ball. This action beyond the control of B3, does not impact the status of B3. He is still legal. PC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Nutshell question. Is B3, minding his own business, a defender a screener, or neither!!! and can actions beyond his control impact his status?

Justa, under the rules his status simply doesn't matter except for whether B3 has established or didn't establish a legal position on the court prior to the contact. It's the same principle as any player on the floor rebounding. All 10 players on the court can establish a legal position during that rebound and their opponents can't run into 'em or push 'em away from that position once it was legally established.