Dribbler goes out of bounds & is first to touch the ball again

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And that's completely legal. There's nothing in the definition of an interrupted dribble that says it has to be an accidentally loss of control.

4-15-5
An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

The play you posted is legal.

If the ball is bouncing where A1 wants it to bounce, it hasn't gotten away from the dribbler. I don't think an intentional act can fit the definition of "gets away from the dribbler."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If the ball is bouncing where A1 wants it to bounce, it hasn't gotten away from the dribbler. I don't think an intentional act can fit the definition of "gets away from the dribbler."

I disagree; if he's more than arms reach from it, he's given up control.
If he's allowing it to bounce multiple times between touches, I'd say he's given up control. Ample opportunity for a defender to take it, IMO.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree; if he's more than arms reach from it, he's given up control.
If he's allowing it to bounce multiple times between touches, I'd say he's given up control. Ample opportunity for a defender to take it, IMO.

But the definition of an interrupted dribble is not ample opportunity for a defender or even giving up control. It's a deflection of the dribble or a ball getting away from the dribbler. Both of these are accidental, not intentional.

There's simply no provision in the rules to intentionally cause an interrupted dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

There's simply no provision in the rules to intentionally cause an interrupted dribble.

See NFHS rule 4-15-2. A dribbler can batt the ball over the head of the defender and then legally run around the defender and dribble again, as long as he has lets the ball bounce once or several times after the batt. The period between the batt and the continuance of the dribble is an interrupted dribble. It momentarily got away from the dribbler, by rules definition, and there is no player control during that time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree; if he's more than arms reach from it, he's given up control.
If he's allowing it to bounce multiple times between touches, I'd say he's given up control. Ample opportunity for a defender to take it, IMO.

+1

The FED defined an interrupted dribble a long, long time ago. They said your dribble was interrupted if you could not immediately dribble again. And that's also why there's no player control during an interrupted dribble. If you can't immediately dribble the ball, quite obviously you also can't have player control of the ball at the same time.

The rule says that the ball momentarily gets away from the dribbler during an interrupted dribble. Intent on the part of dribbler has never been a part of that definition. Thank God too for that. Mind reading ain't one of my strengths.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

+1

The FED defined an interrupted dribble a long, long time ago. They said your dribble was interrupted if you could not immediately dribble again. And that's also why there's no player control during an interrupted dribble. If you can't immediately dribble the ball, quite obviously you also can't have player control of the ball at the same time.

The rule says that the ball momentarily gets away from the dribbler during an interrupted dribble. Intent on the part of dribbler has never been a part of that definition. Thank God too for that. Mind reading ain't one of my strengths.

If I leave the ball, has it gotten away from me?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If I leave the ball, has it gotten away from me?

By rule definition, it sure has. The rule simply says "momentarily gets away from the dribbler". Intent has never been mentioned as being any part of that definition.

You're thinking waaaaaaaay too much on this one, Eastshire, imho. You're trying to read something into the rule....intent.... that just isn't there.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See NFHS rule 4-15-2. A dribbler can batt the ball over the head of the defender and then legally run around the defender and dribble again, as long as he has lets the ball bounce once or several times after the batt. The period between the batt and the continuance of the dribble is an interrupted dribble. It momentarily got away from the dribbler, by rules definition, and there is no player control during that time.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

By rule definition, it sure has. The rule simply says "momentarily gets away from the dribbler". Intent has never been mentioned as being any part of that definition.

You're thinking waaaaaaaay too much on this one, Eastshire, imho. You're trying to read something into the rule....intent.... that just isn't there.

Maybe I am, but I don't think so. I think you are reading a specified distance into the rule that isn't there.

Your scenario isn't an interrupted dribble. It's just a dribble. The player is controlling the ball. It hasn't gotten away from him.

The common meaning of the phrase "gets away" is unintentional movement. If the player puts the ball where he wants it the ball has not gotten away. The rules do not include any statement about the ball being outside of an arm's reach or any other distance.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Maybe I am, but I don't think so. I think you are reading a specified distance into the rule that isn't there.

Your scenario isn't an interrupted dribble. It's just a dribble. The player is controlling the ball. It hasn't gotten away from him.

The common meaning of the phrase "gets away" is unintentional movement. If the player puts the ball where he wants it the ball has not gotten away. The rules do not include any statement about the ball being outside of an arm's reach or any other distance.

No dribbler wants the ball at a location where they can't reach it.

In the case of a dribbler going OOB but leaving the ball inbounds, that is a matter of judgement.

It is a matter of the "choices" A1 has. It is not a matter of distance (although distance can be a clue) or the number of bounces (but that too can be a clue), but a matter of continuous control....of both the ball and player location.

In the event A1 leaves the ball and goes OOB because of momentum, they are not choosing to go OOB. Batting the ball back inbounds until they can return is NOT a dribble. It is an attempt ot save the ball from going OOB. Since they've not ended the dribble, they can resume it upon returning.

However, if A1, while fully in control, chooses to bounce the ball to some location and goes OOB around a defender to get to the ball, A1 has violated.....call it either an OOB violation or leaving the court without authorization, but it the result is the same.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Maybe I am, but I don't think so. I think you are reading a specified distance into the rule that isn't there.

Your scenario isn't an interrupted dribble. It's just a dribble. The player is controlling the ball. It hasn't gotten away from him.

The common meaning of the phrase "gets away" is unintentional movement. If the player puts the ball where he wants it the ball has not gotten away. The rules do not include any statement about the ball being outside of an arm's reach or any other distance.

Nope, I am reading the literal meaning of "player control" the exact same way that the rules makers intended it to be read. If you can't immediately dribble, there is nowayinhell you can have player control at the same time. Quite simply, you can't control the ball if you can't reach it. And intent has never been inserted into the equation either, for reasons that at least to me are quite simple. We aren't mind readers. We have no real idea what any dribbler is actually intending to do. We have to guess their intent. Guessing is never a good officiating practice.

As I said, you're overthinking the heck out of the play imo by inserting your own idea of how the rule should read rather than the way that it actually does read. Intent is never mentioned rules-wise anywhere.

Player control is defined by rule as holding or dribbling the ball. And the rules also state that there is no player control during an interrupted dribble. Are you really trying to tell me that a dribbler still has player control after he batted their dribble over the defender and the dribbler now has that defender between him and the ball?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

The common meaning of the phrase "gets away" is unintentional movement. If the player puts the ball where he wants it the ball has not gotten away. The rules do not include any statement about the ball being outside of an arm's reach or any other distance.

Nor do they include any statement about a requirement that it be accidental.