Travel, carry, or nothing?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by The R

HS GV last night my partner has a play that was kind of strange. A1 is driving towards the basket in front court guarded by B1. The ball gets pinned between B1's hip and A1's hand. It is there for a few counts as both players take 2-3 steps.

My partner whistles a travel.
We discussed it during halftime and I, without seeing the play, thought A1's control of the ball had ended so it would be a no call.

Travel, carry, or nothing?

I don't believe you have a travel here. If both players had control of the ball how can you call travel and who would you call it on? If neither had control you can't have a travel without control in this case. If both had control but neither could gain sole posession of the ball, the only thing I can come up with is a possible held ball.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't believe you have a travel here. If both players had control of the ball how can you call travel and who would you call it on? If neither had control you can't have a travel without control in this case. If both had control but neither could gain sole posession of the ball, the only thing I can come up with is a possible held ball.

How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

The way I see it, the dribble hadn't ended yet, and a player cannot travel while dribbling. I don't think it's resting in A1's hand if it's B1's hip that's preventing it from going to the floor.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The way I see it, the dribble hadn't ended yet, and a player cannot travel while dribbling. I don't think it's resting in A1's hand if it's B1's hip that's preventing it from going to the floor.

So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

Nah, as even if this slips through some loophole in the rules; I think it's safe to say it's an advantage not intended by the rules. If A1's purposefully sticking the ball on the hip of a teammate, I'd consider that control.

No offensive player in his right mind would do this with an opponent's hip on purpose; dribbling is both easier and more controlled.

Besides, it would just be easier to dribble and use A2 as a blocker.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nah, as even if this slips through some loophole in the rules; I think it's safe to say it's an advantage not intended by the rules. If A1's purposefully sticking the ball on the hip of a teammate, I'd consider that control.

No offensive player in his right mind would do this with an opponent's hip on purpose; dribbling is both easier and more controlled.

Besides, it would just be easier to dribble and use A2 as a blocker.

Besides, in that case I'd consider the hip to be part of the leg. Not that really takes away from your point, though, as he could use the teammate's back instead.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

So I quess it's alright for A1 to stick the ball on the hip of A2 and run down the court?

That would be a travel as it violates the spirit of the rule. In order for you to travel you must first have control. If I pass you the ball and you are running up the court but bobble the ball while taking a few steps that is not a travel. However, if you intentionally bobble the ball while running up the court, I will call a travel. In the latter case if I deem you could have gained control but didn't so you could run up the court, I'm going to call a travel.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

That would be a travel as it violates the spirit of the rule. In order for you to travel you must first have control. If I pass you the ball and you are running up the court but bobble the ball while taking a few steps that is not a travel. However, if you intentionally bobble the ball while running up the court, I will call a travel. In the latter case if I deem you could have gained control but didn't so you could run up the court, I'm going to call a travel.

That's all good and I agree, however, in the OP the player never fumbled the ball, the ball never drops or slips from a player's grasp. That's why I say travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

That's all good and I agree, however, in the OP the player never fumbled the ball, the ball never drops or slips from a player's grasp. That's why I say travel.

When did the dribble end?

[Eastshire]

It's nothing. A1 is still dribbling the ball.

4-15-4

The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control.

e. The ball becomes dead.

Let's examine them.

a - A1's hand is resting on the ball rather than the ball resting in A1's hand.
b - A1 is not palming or carrying the ball.
c - A1 is only touching the ball with one hand.
d - A1 has not lost control (yet)
e - The ball has not become dead.

Since the dribble has not ended, A1 cannot be guilty of traveling.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

This is a had to be there type of play. I was just thinking out loud at all the possibilities.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

I don't think the held ball rule works here. You're referencing 4-25-2; applicable only on a shot. 4-25-1 requires the inability of either player to get singular control without undue roughness. Neither apply to the OP. No way I'm calling a held ball with one player's hand and one player's hip.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

Look at it this way...held ball is both opponents with hands, not hips

SECTION 25 HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 . . . Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 . . . An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Look at it this way...held ball is both opponents with hands, not hips

I would agree with "nothing," if the opposing players were standing still.

However, once A-1's pivot foot comes up and goes back down, you must have something. If you held the ball against a teammate's hip, and moved that pivot foot, you'd have a travel.

But, how can you have a travel when the ball is being touched by an opponent? With that, the only viable remaining option I see is a held ball.