Travel, carry, or nothing?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

How can B1 have control? 4-12-1...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

I don't think the held ball rule works here. You're referencing 4-25-2; applicable only on a shot. 4-25-1 requires the inability of either player to get singular control without undue roughness. Neither apply to the OP. No way I'm calling a held ball with one player's hand and one player's hip.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Look at it this way. A-1 goes up for a shot, which is blocked by B-2, who pins the ball to A-1's shooting hand. By rule, this is a held ball.

Simply put, the ball is pinned between two opposing players. If the resulting movement would be a travel(as a blocked shot of an airborne player), then I say you'd have to go with a held ball.

Look at it this way...held ball is both opponents with hands, not hips

SECTION 25 HELD BALL
A held ball occurs when:
ART. 1 . . . Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
ART. 2 . . . An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Look at it this way...held ball is both opponents with hands, not hips

I would agree with "nothing," if the opposing players were standing still.

However, once A-1's pivot foot comes up and goes back down, you must have something. If you held the ball against a teammate's hip, and moved that pivot foot, you'd have a travel.

But, how can you have a travel when the ball is being touched by an opponent? With that, the only viable remaining option I see is a held ball.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I would agree with "nothing," if the opposing players were standing still.

However, once A-1's pivot foot comes up and goes back down, you must have something. If you held the ball against a teammate's hip, and moved that pivot foot, you'd have a travel.

But, how can you have a travel when the ball is being touched by an opponent? With that, the only viable remaining option I see is a held ball.

You don't have a pivot foot; A1 is not holding the ball 4-33.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You don't have a pivot foot; A1 is not holding the ball 4-33.

The rule you cite defines what a player may or may not do while holding the ball but exactly where do the rules define "holding"? That is really the essence of this situation.

[Camron Rust]

I think this situation actually exposes a hole in the rules.


Here is what I think:

• A1 is not dribbling the ball...dribbing is "ball movement"
• A1 is not holding the ball...therefore no travel.
• It is not an interrupted dribble as it hasn't gotten away from A1
• B1 hasn't earned a held ball

I think we have one big ugly nothing.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think this situation actually exposes a hole in the rules.


Here is what I think:

• A1 is not dribbling the ball...dribbing is "ball movement"
• A1 is not holding the ball...therefore no travel.
• It is not an interrupted dribble as it hasn't gotten away from A1
• B1 hasn't earned a held ball

I think we have one big ugly nothing.

You're problem is that A1 was dribbling so unless he started holding the ball, he has not ended his dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by camron rust

i think this situation actually exposes a hole in the rules.


Here is what i think:

• a1 is not dribbling the ball...dribbing is "ball movement"
• a1 is not holding the ball...therefore no travel.
• it is not an interrupted dribble as it hasn't gotten away from a1
• b1 hasn't earned a held ball

i think we have one big ugly nothing.

+1

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think this situation actually exposes a hole in the rules.


Here is what I think:

• A1 is not dribbling the ball...dribbing is "ball movement"
• A1 is not holding the ball...therefore no travel.
• It is not an interrupted dribble as it hasn't gotten away from A1
• B1 hasn't earned a held ball

I think we have one big ugly nothing.

I think it's a "double violation." (rule 11-3)

Go to the POI, but do it without the whistle.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

• A1 is not dribbling the ball...dribbing is "ball movement"
• A1 is not holding the ball...therefore no travel.
• It is not an interrupted dribble as it hasn't gotten away from A1
• B1 hasn't earned a held ball

I agree with 1, 3, and 4. Still, if A1 pinned the ball against A2's leg, and both took steps, was it not established that we would have a travel, even though A1 still would not be holding the ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rule you cite defines what a player may or may not do while holding the ball but exactly where do the rules define "holding"? That is really the essence of this situation.

And that's exactly why it's a judgment call imo.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And that's exactly why it's a judgment call imo.

Exactly, then we refer back to the calling official in the OP which was a travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I would agree with "nothing," if the opposing players were standing still.

However, once A-1's pivot foot comes up and goes back down, you must have something. If you held the ball against a teammate's hip, and moved that pivot foot, you'd have a travel.

But, how can you have a travel when the ball is being touched by an opponent? With that, the only viable remaining option I see is a held ball.

You don't have to have anything; the dribble continues.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You don't have to have anything; the dribble continues.

When the ball's motion has clearly been stopped?