Travel? Loss of Possession?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

For it to be travel, he would have to drop the ball to the floor and then be the first to touch it, wouldn't he?

If he is fumbling the ball, what diff does it make. He is allowed to go and retrieve the ball. Like Snags said, if he regains control of the ball and starts another dribble then we don't have a travel, we got an illegal dribble

[johnsonboys03]

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

Think this through for a second. Do all tries end by hitting the floor or with a dead ball?

[johnsonboys03]

by rule yes

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

by rule yes

Really? So A1 makes a try for goal.
It hits the rim, and B1 gets the rebound.

Knowing that player or team control do not exist during a try, are you still saying the try is still ongoing after B1 gets the rebound?

[johnsonboys03]

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

I'm sorry but somewhere I got lost on this dicussion. Anybody wanna let me in on the new debate?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

by rule yes

The point of that rule is that a "try" ends when the ball hits the floor. IOW, if A1 launches a shot from half court just before the horn, the basket cannot count if it bounces in.
The same holds true in the case of an offensive violation or player control foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying if the player fumbles the try, it would still be a travel if he catches it and lands? The fumble absolutely means everything here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

Taken literally, this could lead to some interesting situations....A1 jumps, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled regardless of who subsequently touches the ball.

In fact, try this one....A1 jumps, B1 blocks A1's try before A1 released te ball the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled.

The point....this rule assumes it is not complicated by other actions such as a fumble, a blocked shot, or who knows what.

As has been said, a blocked shot or a fumble changes everything. A1 is now a player gaining control of a loose ball.

Imagine this one....

A1 having used their dribble establishes a pivot foot. A1 fumbles the ball. A1 takes 5 steps in order to get the ball. A1 again establishes a piviot foot in the new location. Has A1 violated at any point along the way? No. A1 can not travel while not holding the ball (player control).

[johnsonboys03]

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

Rule 4-21 = "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp"

Therefore whether a jump or a shot how can it be a travel if the player lost player control?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

Sadly, the thinking from all of your years of experience would give you the wrong ruling during an NCAA game.

So what does that tell you?

A.R. 82. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct? RULING: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

[johnsonboys03]

Like I said I'm not saying I'm right.
All my years of experience where at the high school level and not NCAA. I'm sure the rule may differ between the two.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

Like I said I'm not saying I'm right.
All my years of experience where at the high school level and not NCAA. I'm sure the rule may differ between the two.

Nope.