Fifth Player runs onto the floor

[rainmaker]

GJV. Time out called, passes, ends. As P (T) is administering the throw-in to red, I'm trying to count players. Ball is inbounded, clock starts, players are passing the ball around, I realize there are only four red players. About that time, a red player who had been in the game before the TO jumps up and runs onto the floor. Easy T.

Okay, I know it shouldn't have happened, and if I'd been administering, it wouldn't have. Partner had been explaining a rule or something to the player who was inbounding and hadn't counted. I wasn't sure whether I was seeing everyone or not, so I didn't stop the action early enough.

Now, is this an individual T? We gave it to her, made sure they added it to the team total, and played on. At half-time, I was talking to the Varsity guys about it. We got all confused about team vs bench vs individual vs any other kind of technical and which kind gets the indirect onto the coach.

Came home and looked it up. We goofed. It's a team technical (10-1-9), no indirect on the coach, no individual gets a T.

Then, I had some questions. Is there such a thing as a bench technical that isn't also an individual technical? I can't tell if you can just give a T to the bench in general without specifying a certain person.

During a time-out, all team members are bench personnel. So when only four players enter the court, isn't that fifth player who's sitting on the bench by mistake still a bench personnel? So why isn't this a bench technical?

And why can't a JV coach even count to 5??

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

GJV. Time out called, passes, ends. As P (T) is administering the throw-in to red, I'm trying to count players. Ball is inbounded, clock starts, players are passing the ball around, I realize there are only four red players. About that time, a red player who had been in the game before the TO jumps up and runs onto the floor. Easy T.

Okay, I know it shouldn't have happened, and if I'd been administering, it wouldn't have. Partner had been explaining a rule or something to the player who was inbounding and hadn't counted. I wasn't sure whether I was seeing everyone or not, so I didn't stop the action early enough.

Now, is this an individual T? We gave it to her, made sure they added it to the team total, and played on. At half-time, I was talking to the Varsity guys about it. We got all confused about team vs bench vs individual vs any other kind of technical and which kind gets the indirect onto the coach.

Came home and looked it up. We goofed. It's a team technical (10-1-9), no indirect on the coach, no individual gets a T.

Then, I had some questions. Is there such a thing as a bench technical that isn't also an individual technical? I can't tell if you can just give a T to the bench in general without specifying a certain person.

During a time-out, all team members are bench personnel. So when only four players enter the court, isn't that fifth player who's sitting on the bench by mistake still a bench personnel? So why isn't this a bench technical?

And why can't a JV coach even count to 5??

You have discovered the proper rule in 10-1-9 and are now correct that this is a TEAM technical.

Why that is true is because you are incorrect about what I put in red. The five players remain players during a time-out. It is during an intermission that all players become bench personnel. That is an important distinction.

SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 . . . A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

Lastly, your question about charging the bench with a Team T is often asked. The answer is that generally you should NOT do this. You should be able to identify a specific offender and assess the direct T to that individual. However, there are certain instances in which it would be appropriate to issue a Team T to the bench and that would also carry an indirect to the Head Coach. If a number of team members on the bench engage in unsporting conduct or remove their jerseys, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual with a technical foul. You just go with a Team T.
There was an interp on this last year:

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 4: During the pregame warm-up, the 12 members of Team A are wearing warm-up tops, but not their team jerseys. Approximately one minute prior to the opening jump ball, the 12 Team A members go to the team bench, remove the warm-up tops and put on the team jerseys. RULING: One technical foul is charged to Team A, and it is also charged indirectly to the head coach. COMMENT: In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)


Also, if you positively know that someone on the bench said or did something unsporting, but you aren't sure who the guilty party is you can go with just a Team T to the bench. I strongly attempt to avoid this last example.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I wasn't sure whether I was seeing everyone or not, so I didn't stop the action early enough.

If you're not sure, your hand should be up. Drop it when you're sure each team has five players; don't wait to raise it when you're sure one team doesn't.

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

.



And why can't a JV coach even count to 5??

Or a JV ref??

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Or a JV ref??

Touche' Bearef!

[chartrusepengui]

ok if during a time out situation players remain players, and one "forgets" to come on the court following the TO - shouldn't the T be charged directly to them for failing to get on the court? It is confusing that during TO's players remain players BUT if one player is late on court after TO it is a team technical. Perhaps rules committee could revise - or quite possibly I am thinking of the wrong wording. Book not with me right now.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you're not sure, your hand should be up. Drop it when you're sure each team has five players; don't wait to raise it when you're sure one team doesn't.

We had two games together, and he'd been counting consistently, as had I. I just figured when I couldn't see someone, that he had. I know you're right, but I guess I just dropped the concentration on this one time. Darn.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

GJV. Time out called, passes, ends. As P (T) is administering the throw-in to red, I'm trying to count players. Ball is inbounded, clock starts, players are passing the ball around, I realize there are only four red players. About that time, a red player who had been in the game before the TO jumps up and runs onto the floor. Easy T.

Okay, I know it shouldn't have happened, and if I'd been administering, it wouldn't have. Partner had been explaining a rule or something to the player who was inbounding and hadn't counted. I wasn't sure whether I was seeing everyone or not, so I didn't stop the action early enough.

Now, is this an individual T? We gave it to her, made sure they added it to the team total, and played on. At half-time, I was talking to the Varsity guys about it. We got all confused about team vs bench vs individual vs any other kind of technical and which kind gets the indirect onto the coach.

Came home and looked it up. We goofed. It's a team technical (10-1-9), no indirect on the coach, no individual gets a T.

Then, I had some questions. Is there such a thing as a bench technical that isn't also an individual technical? I can't tell if you can just give a T to the bench in general without specifying a certain person.

During a time-out, all team members are bench personnel. So when only four players enter the court, isn't that fifth player who's sitting on the bench by mistake still a bench personnel? So why isn't this a bench technical?

And why can't a JV coach even count to 5??

Juulie:

I am not going to address the rules to be applied here excpet that there are three NFHS Rules that can possibly apply: 1) R10-S1-A9 (which I believe is the applicable one); 2) R10-S2-A1 and A2; and 3) R10-S3-A3. I think that you and I would agree, that this is a situation that can happen all too many times when one is working with a weak official who is not mechanically sound. And while it is the Head Coach's responsibility to make sure that he send five (5) players back onto the court; it can be said that the oncourt officials are just as cupable in this situation.

I am not blaming you for what happened in your game. I know I have had many situations when I have been the Trail and I have had my open hand up and trying to count players and my partner puts the ball into play. The question that one should ask is can a technical foul be afforded when one official make a blunder of this type?

Two weeks ago, I was T opposite the table in the first half, when the ball went out-of-bounds off V1 on the Team H's endline, table side. I put up the stop sign to my partner and counted players, checked the Scorer's Table for subsitutes (there were none) and then pointed to him that I was ready. Just as the L started to hand the ball to H1 for the throw-in, Team H's Head Coach yelled substitute and the Timer sounded the horn, the L pulled the ball away from H1 and I saw H6 three (3) steps from the Scorer's Table, and my partner signaled for H6 to enter the game. I stepped in and denied H6 from entering the game. Team H's Head Coach was not happy, but as T I was resposible for substitutes and H6 had not reported to the Scorer prior to the ball about to become live (an imminent change of status for my fellow old geezers out there).

While my situation does not involve a technical foul, it is a situation where improper mehanics can get officials in trouble.

MTD, Sr.

[dkmz17]

If the fifth player does not enter the game after the ball becomes live, but goes to the scorers table to await the next dead ball and is then beckoned by the officials to enter the game, there is no technical, correct?

[Ray_from_Mi]

Any time there is more than 5 or less than 5 is our 'bad'. One of things we do in 3-man is indiv. counts. If you are inbounding, my hand is up and I count 10, when my arm comes down, you then count also. Because you are controlling the ball coming inbounds, you have the 'last gate' before the ball is in play again. When more than one counts - I would like to think its impossible to have more/less than 10 on the court when the ball is put back into play.