Player Laying on the Floor

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

In NFHS, every player is entitled to his/her position on the court, provided s/he got there legally -- even if that position is lying down. In NCAA, a player lying on the floor does NOT have a legal position.

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

[GoodwillRef]

B1 hand established legal guarding positon on A1 not A2...Foul on B1

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

Under NFHS rules, it is not relevant unless B1 was either jumping or moving. A stationary defender doesn't need LGP. LGP only grants the defender the right to be moving at the time of contact.

If you call this foul (B1 laying on the floor) every single time in HS, you will call it wrong every single time.

If B1 is rising and contacts A* while rising, that would be a foul as they are moving but don't have LGP.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A stationary defender doesn't need LGP. LGP only grants the defender the right to be moving at the time of contact.

+1

This is exactly how to think about LGP, which is always raised in this scenario but is a red herring.

[Rufus]

I guess I need help with this one. Let's start with 4-23-2a & b:

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Please help me understand how a player lying on the floor obtained legal guarding position. If your point is that LGP doesn't apply, how do you jibe the resulting fall of A2 with 10-6-1:

A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

Is lying on the floor considered a "normal position?"

The original posting didn't indicate if B1 had obtaining legal guarding position before falling after the block attempt. That's one scenario that I might see LGP applying, but I don't think that was the point of the post.

This was a point of emphasis for our association this year and was a question on our test if I recall correctly. The conclusion reached is that this is a foul on B1.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I guess I need help with this one. Let's start with 4-23-2a & b:

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Please help me understand how a player lying on the floor obtained legal guarding position. If your point is that LGP doesn't apply, how do you jibe the resulting fall of A2 with 10-6-1:

A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

Is lying on the floor considered a "normal position?"

The original posting didn't indicate if B1 had obtaining legal guarding position before falling after the block attempt. That's one scenario that I might see LGP applying, but I don't think that was the point of the post.

This was a point of emphasis for our association this year and was a question on our test if I recall correctly. The conclusion reached is that this is a foul on B1.

The player on the floor did not extend arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s), knee(s), or bend his/her body. Nor did he use rough tactics. He was just a bump on a log.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

The player on the floor did not extend arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s), knee(s), or bend his/her body. Nor did he use rough tactics. He was just a bump on a log.

+1

Exactly right. Every act described in 10-6-1 refers to some movement by the defender. A player lying motionless on the floor cannot possibly initiate contact, and therefore cannot initiate illegal contact. It's just not a foul.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by mbyron

+1

Exactly right. Every act described in 10-6-1 refers to some movement by the defender. A player lying motionless on the floor cannot possibly initiate contact, and therefore cannot initiate illegal contact. It's just not a foul.

If A1 jumps for a rebound and comes straight down and lands on a player lying on the floor it most definitely is a foul because of the Principle of Verticality. I am entitled to my spot on the floor from the floor to the ceiling. If I jump for a rebound I am entitled to return to the floor unimpeded by the defense. In this situation a player lying on the floor is not protected from being called for a foul.

[Back In The Saddle]

IIRC, the justification for this interp was this: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

The takeaway was that "Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor, even if that spot is, temporarily, lying on the floor".

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Me, at Noon, Eastern time

In NFHS, every player is entitled to his/her position on the court, provided s/he got there legally -- even if that position is lying down.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle, 2 hours later

IIRC, the justification for this interp was this: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

The takeaway was that "Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor, even if that spot is, temporarily, lying on the floor".

Ummmmm. Just sayin'. . .

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ummmmm. Just sayin'. . .

Aren't you quite the agitator.

[Back In The Saddle]

Glad you agree. I think I'd think less of you otherwise

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I guess I need help with this one.

Is lying on the floor considered a "normal position?"

Rufus, forget legal guarding position. It's got dick-all to do with the call. Every player on the court is entitled to a legal position on the court. It says that specifically in the preamble of rule 4-23..."Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.". That statement includes a player laying on the court.

If a player ran into the back of another player blocking out on a rebound, would you call the foul on the player blocking out because they didn't establish a legal guarding position?

Use the same concept for players laying on the floor.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a player ran into the back of another player blocking out on a rebound, would you call the foul on the player blocking out because they didn't establish a legal guarding position?

Use the same concept for players laying on the floor.

I guess that's what I meant and took a really bad, long, way to get there. In your example I don't see advantage/disadvantage (i.e., player bounces off player boxing out). With a player falling over another player on the court I do (i.e., player falling while making move to shoot after securing a rebound). Would the rebounding player have tripped over the opposing player if they had been standing instead? Based on the interps you all are posting it would appear not to matter so I'm going to have to rethink this one, but I'm still having a hard time getting there.

Just so you know, one of the great expressions I've heard is that "ugly isn't always wrong and pretty isn't alway right." I have no issue with bodies colliding in a small space, just start questioning when one body is the cause of another one doing something it didn't intend to do (i.e., fall down).

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When did B1 establish legal guarding position on the A player that got the rebound and shot the ball? To obtain legal: must have both feet touching the playing court and facing the opponent...I will call this a foul every single time.

B1 was not guarding anyone at the time. What illegal contact did B1 initiate that warrants a foul?