backboard

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Everybody else says yes. Even without Nevada's cite, we all still can consider it a try, unless you still want to be "that guy."

OK. Let's play. I won't wait for Jurassic Referee's permission. It's my baseball.

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane.

Please note that no decisions regarding a pass, or try, are needed in this hypothetical play. It says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try. Period.

Ruling? Citation please? Just for kicks, lets assume that it's a test question, needing a "rulebook answer". Here's a cheat sheet: NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Here's the 60 Seconds On Officiating website take: "Throwing the ball and hitting the backboard of the team in possession is always considered a try for goal. The tossing player may compete to recover the ball, and if they do, they have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble. Note that the 60 Seconds On Officiating website is a partner of IAABO. I don't know what their relationship is with NFHS.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

OK. Let's play. I won't wait for Jurassic Referee's permission. It's my baseball.

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane.

Please note that no decisions regarding a pass, or try, are needed in this hypothetical play. It says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try. Period.

Ruling? Citation please? Just for kicks, lets assume that it's a test question, needing a "rulebook answer". Here's a cheat sheet: NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Here's the 60 Seconds On Officiating website take: "Throwing the ball and hitting the backboard of the team in possession is always considered a try for goal. The tossing player may compete to recover the ball, and if they do, they have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble. Note that the 60 Seconds On Officiating website is a partner of IAABO. I don't know what their relationship is with NFHS.

Billy, Nevada gave us the cite: 9.5.

As jar says, and as I've pointed out, without the case you could rule it a non-try and thus a violation, but you'd be the only one doing it.

However, with the case play, you don't even have that option.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

OK. Let's play. I won't wait for Jurassic Referee's permission. It's my baseball.

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane.

Please note that no decisions regarding a pass, or try, are needed in this hypothetical play. It says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try. Period.

Ruling? Citation please? Just for kicks, lets assume that it's a test question, needing a "rulebook answer". Here's a cheat sheet: NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Here's the 60 Seconds On Officiating website take: "Throwing the ball and hitting the backboard of the team in possession is always considered a try for goal. The tossing player may compete to recover the ball, and if they do, they have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble. Note that the 60 Seconds On Officiating website is a partner of IAABO. I don't know what their relationship is with NFHS.

Stop thinking so much.

It's legal, and the player who recovers the ball has all the priveleges of anyone else who "recovers" a loose ball.

[just another ref]

In Billy's defense, Nevada's case play still leaves some questions unanswered. It says that the other two instances are violations because they constitute another dribble. So all we know for certain based on this case play is that throwing against one's own backboard is not a dribble. The fact that the word "equipment" is in quotes means what? Does this throw and catch wipe the slate clean for that player or is it the same as the player throwing the ball up, bouncing it off his own head (also part of his "equipment") and catching it again?

This case play alone tells us very little, as far as I can see.

If the following sentence appeared somewhere in the books it would be helpful.

Any thrown ball which strikes the ring or backboard of the throwing team without being first touched by a teammate shall be treated as a try, regardless of apparent intent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In Billy's defense, Nevada's case play still leaves some questions unanswered. It says that the other two instances are violations because they constitute another dribble. So all we know for certain based on this case play is that throwing against one's own backboard is not a dribble. The fact that the word "equipment" is in quotes means what? Does this throw and catch wipe the slate clean for that player or is it the same as the player throwing the ball up, bouncing it off his own head (also part of his "equipment") and catching it again?

This case play alone tells us very little, as far as I can see.

If the following sentence appeared somewhere in the books it would be helpful.

Any thrown ball which strikes the ring or backboard of the throwing team without being first touched by a teammate shall be treated as a try, regardless of apparent intent.

Yes, there's somewhat conflicting language in case book play in 4.15.4SitC(c) as in..."once the ball is released on the try...... As stated already many, many times on several different forums, NOTHING changes the FACT that the universal and accepted practice is to ALWAYS rule a ball thrown by someone against their own backboard to ALWAYS be a try. Every single time! No exceptions!

KISS! Otherwise...paralysis through freaking analysis. Always listen to Bob and everybody stop thinking so damn much.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, there's somewhat conflicting language in case book play in 4.15.4SitC(c) as in..."once the ball is released on the try......

That particular language is a relatively recent addition to the case. I can't remember if something else changed when they added it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That particular language is a relatively recent addition to the case. I can't remember if something else changed when they added it.

Just went through the old books. It was changed in the 2003-04 case book and noted then as being new with a *. It didn't show up as a rule change though, so it must have been a clarification. They added "in an attempt to score(try)" and "released on the try". Before that, 4.15.4(c) almost mirrored what is now case book play 9.5. In 2003-04, case book play 9.5 only referred to throwing the ball against the opponent's back board or an official. No reference at all to your own board.

I also remember a very, very old case play dating back to the early 70's iirc that said that this play was a judgment call. That case play disappeared after 2/3 years also iirc because no one would ever judge that it wasn't always a try.

To the best of my knowledge what is now outlined in 9.5 is the way the play is universally adjudicated. If it's thrown at your own board and hits it, it's a try. End of endless arguments. Period.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

To the best of my knowledge what is now outlined in 9.5 is the way the play is universally adjudicated. If it's thrown at your own board and hits it, it's a try.

In practice, judgment call? Agree.
In practice, universally adjudicated as a try? Totally agree.

I'm taking a one question rules exam, based on written rules, and I've bet my house that I will get this one question correct. Before I take said exam, I need to know few things. Here's what we've got:

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

We know that the player can stop his dribble, throw it off his own backboard, and legally catch it. Does he legally "have the same privileges as the other nine players on the court to shoot the ball or begin a dribble"?

Here's my one question exam (you've seen this question before):

A1, who has ended his dribble, throws an alley oop pass to A2. A2 gets blocked out at the last second and doesn't come anywhere near catching, or even touching, the alley oop pass. The pass from A1 hits the top right corner of A1's backboard and rebounds immediately back to A1, who catches the rebounded ball and dribbles out of the lane. (please note that it says pass on three separate occasions. It's a pass, not a try.)

Because I've bet my house on this, I've brought a cheat sheet (you've seen this before):
NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Ruling to one question exam, please? Written rule citation, please?

Jurassic Referee: Thanks for going through your old books. Even though we somewhat disagree, I appreciate your efforts to solve this odd situation that the guys over at 60 Seconds On Officiating have thrust upon us, and many others all over the internet.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, there's somewhat conflicting language in case book play in 4.15.4SitC(c) as in, "once the ball is released on the try.

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the following sentence appeared somewhere in the books it would be helpful: Any thrown ball which strikes the ring or backboard of the throwing team without being first touched by a teammate shall be treated as a try, regardless of apparent intent.

Maybe Santa will bring us this for Christmas. If not, the guys over at "60 Seconds On Officiating" should get coal in their stockings. High sulfur, Chinese coal.