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Old Wed Oct 20, 2010, 06:30pm
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You Can Ring My Bell ...

Team A trails 56 to 55 with 60 seconds left in the game. Team A has the ball and is setting up a last second shot. A1, Team A's best player, accidentally trips over his own feet coming of a screen. A1 falls and hits his head on the floor. As he tries to stand up he stumbles a few steps. The official realizes that A1 is showing a symptom of a concussion and blows the whistle to stop the game. The official tells the coach that A1 "appears dizzy" and beckons the coach, and/or trainer, onto the court. The coach, realizing that he has used up all of his timeouts, and that if he steps onto the court he will have to remove his best player from the game, or take a time out at the expense of a technical foul, tells the official, from his bench, without ever stepping out onto the court, that, "A1 seems fine. I'll keep him in the game". By rule, if this were a normal injury, the sit a tick, or take a timeout, rule wouldn't apply because the coach and/or trainer did not come out onto the court. However, the way I read the new concussion rule, once the official feels that there is a concussion symptom, then even if the coach, and/or trainer, doesn't come out onto the court, the injured player who showed a symptom of a concussion must still sit a tick, or the coach must call a timeout, to keep him in the game. I am assuming that during the time interval to sit a tick, or during the timeout, a health care professional clears the player to continue playing in the game.

Discussion?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 06:33pm.
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Old Wed Oct 20, 2010, 06:44pm
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The player must be directed to leave the game. So, a sub is needed. You can't grant the TO until the sub is in the game. The removed player can't return until the clock has properly started.
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Old Wed Oct 20, 2010, 06:52pm
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Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The player must be directed to leave the game. So, a sub is needed. You can't grant the TO until the sub is in the game. The removed player can't return until the clock has properly started.
Sounds good, but, citation please. I don't see anything here (below) about sitting a tick, but I've been known to be wrong in the past. Also, at our local board's interpretation meeting last night we were told that such a player could continue to play if he was cleared by a health care professional during a timeout. But that's just our little corner of Connecticut.

3-3-8: Any player who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent
with a concussion (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness,
confusion, or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the game
and shall not return to play until cleared by an appropriate health care
professional.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 07:11pm.
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Old Wed Oct 20, 2010, 06:58pm
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There's 3 new case book plays on player injuries this year.

3.3.6SitA, B, & C.

Read 'em.
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Old Wed Oct 20, 2010, 07:04pm
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Inquiring Minds ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
3.3.6SitA, B, & C.
These appear to be about "regular", that is, non concussive, injuries. Are you saying that these case plays also apply to concussions, assuming that in all cases a health care professional clears such players?

*3.3.6 SITUATION A: A1 is injured and play is stopped to permit the athletic
trainer or physician to administer aid. (a) A1 is removed from the court and
replaced within less than one minute; or (b) the injury is such that the physician
will not allow A1 to be removed from the court until being certain it is prudent to
do so. After approximately five minutes, A1 is moved from the court. RULING: No
time-out is charged in either (a) or (b), regardless of the amount of time involved.
The intent of the rule is to require an injured player to be removed without charging
a team with a 60-second time-out, regardless of how much time is consumed
prior to removal. A team may call a time-out if they wish to keep the player (if
able) in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution has not
began. (5-8-2a)

*3.3.6 SITUATION B: A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts
play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK
and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as
the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not
come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other
bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced. There is
no set amount of time as to what is immed iately, but it should not involve more
than a few seconds and it must be without the coach, athletic trainer or doctor
being beckoned and/or entering the court. The coach may also call a time-out to
keep the player in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution
has not began. (10-4-2)

*3.3.6 SITUATION C: A1 is injured and bench personnel are beckoned onto the
court. Once A1 has been removed from the court, the official notifies Team As
head coach that a replacement is required. The coach acknowledges the notification
and the official then instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement
interval because a substitute is not made available immediately. Team As head
coach then requests a time-out to keep A1 in the game. RULING: The time-out
request must be made when the official informs the coach that a replacement is
required. Once the 20-second interval has begun and A1s replacement is pending,
a time-out shall not be granted. Once A1 is replaced by a substitute, Team A
may request and be granted a time-out, if desired. (2-12-5 Note; 3-3-6 Note 2;
5-8-3b)
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Old Wed Oct 20, 2010, 07:30pm
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Our state supervisor of officials told us he sits a tick.

So, he sits a tick.
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 08:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sounds good, but, citation please.
5-8-3b
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 10:11am
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These all are great points made by everyone, but let me take this one step further. What are we classifying as proper health care professional. A athletic trainer is not always a certified doctor or medical professional. How can athletic trainer give the clearance that a player is able to return especially after a brief trip to the bench.

I have never had a concussion or been in a state of that, but from knowing a few people who have had that from other sport injuries I know it normally take a couple of preliminary test for it. A player tripping over his/her feet and falling to the floor and then getting up and being "dizzy," is a sign of a concussion I get that, but how do you let a player come back in after less than a minute. The book says no matter what the player has to come out and cannot return without the written authorization of a physician being either MD/DO (09-10 Rule Book, 2-8-5 p. 16 and 3-3-8 p. 21)

I know that is out of last years rule book but if someone has this year book in front of them could they please post the verbage for this year.

My main point here is that how could you have time to have an athletic trainer check them and clear them unless the trained is an MD/DO.

Peace,
JB
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBleach85 View Post
These all are great points made by everyone, but let me take this one step further. What are we classifying as proper health care professional.
"We" (at least in this state) aren't responsible for "classifying" anyone. It's the coach's job.

And, if the player comes in and still exhibits symptoms, we can send the player right back out.
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBleach85 View Post
These all are great points made by everyone, but let me take this one step further. What are we classifying as proper health care professional.
TN has instructed that if the "Referee" uses the word "concussion" in any form, then, the player must be evaluated by an MD/DO, who must sign a TSSAA provided form before the player is allow to return to any athletic activity.

The referee does not have to see the signed form but shall ask the coach if the player has been evaluated by an MD/DO and has the TSSAA form been signed? Should the coach stipulate in the affirmative, we are to allow the player to enter the game. Should further signs of potential concussion be observed we are to again remove the player and request that the player be evaluated again.

Any time a player is directed from the contest to be evaluated for symptoms of concussion regardless of re-entry or not, the Referee shall submit an "unusual occurrence" form to TSSAA within 24 hours of the contest.

The TSSAA supervisor conducting the state rules meeting alluded to the referee, having the coach remove the player, without using the word "concussion", would allow evaluation by a "trainer" and not trigger the "form" requirement.

Last edited by ref2coach; Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 12:05pm.
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 01:24pm
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In GA we've been told that the player must leave. If they "sit a tick" and are allowed back in (assuming they are not still displaying signs of a concussion) it's assumed they've been checked out by an appropriate health care
professional who has conveyed to the coach it's ok for the player to return. The responsibility for this is on the coach, not us. We don't ask for a note, who evaluated them, or anything. The thought is that if they are checking in the coach has taken care of that.

Don't have any idea on how defendable that position is, or if it will stand up in a potential lawsuit, but there it is. I was actually glad they clarified where/when our responsibilities begin and end because when we first heard of the rule in summer camp we were concerned about many of the things being discussed (i.e., having to be medically trained in some fashion, getting a note, etc.).
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 01:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
And, if the player comes in and still exhibits symptoms, we can send the player right back out.
Agreed. In Missouri, if they exhibit signs or symptoms as they're coming onto the playing court we've been told to deny their entry.
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 03:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Team A trails 56 to 55 with 60 seconds left in the game. Team A has the ball and is setting up a last second shot. A1, Team A's best player, accidentally trips over his own feet coming of a screen. A1 falls and hits his head on the floor. As he tries to stand up he stumbles a few steps. The official realizes that A1 is showing a symptom of a concussion and blows the whistle to stop the game. The official tells the coach that A1 "appears dizzy" and beckons the coach, and/or trainer, onto the court. The coach, realizing that he has used up all of his timeouts, and that if he steps onto the court he will have to remove his best player from the game, or take a time out at the expense of a technical foul, tells the official, from his bench, without ever stepping out onto the court, that, "A1 seems fine. I'll keep him in the game". By rule, if this were a normal injury, the sit a tick, or take a timeout, rule wouldn't apply because the coach and/or trainer did not come out onto the court. However, the way I read the new concussion rule, once the official feels that there is a concussion symptom, then even if the coach, and/or trainer, doesn't come out onto the court, the injured player who showed a symptom of a concussion must still sit a tick, or the coach must call a timeout, to keep him in the game. I am assuming that during the time interval to sit a tick, or during the timeout, a health care professional clears the player to continue playing in the game.

Discussion?


Billy:

There have been a number of relevant Rules and Casebook Plays listed in this thread so far. But the key to this play is: The Game Official has stopped play because, in his judgment, thinks that the Player has suffered a concussion, has lost consciousness or has become unconscious, or is so injured that the GO believes that the Player should immediately be attended to by Bench Personnel, and therefore beckons for the Head Coach to leave the Bench and attend to his player. Once the GO beckons the HC onto the Court, the player must leave and cannot re-enter the game (if certain Rules requirements are met) until the first opportunity to substitute after the clock has started. I have highlighted the words “beckons the HC onto the Court” because it is the key action by the GO that applies to all similar situations.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 05:50pm
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Confused ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
5-8-3b
Grants a players/head coachs oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

I understand that we don't grant a time out if there is a disqualified player until he, or she, is replaced. Probably the same thing with an untucked jersey (by the book). But in the case of an injured player (not a concussion, let's say a twisted ankle), or a bleeding player, aren't we allowed to grant a time out to the coach to keep that player in the game, if the injury can be dealt with, or the bleeding can be stopped, in the time frame of a time out. If what I say is true, what rule covers that?
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Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 05:54pm
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Bell Rung: Time Out, Or Sit A Tick ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Team A trails 56 to 55 with 60 seconds left in the game. Team A has the ball and is setting up a last second shot. A1, Team A's best player, accidentally trips over his own feet coming of a screen. A1 falls and hits his head on the floor. As he tries to stand up he stumbles a few steps. The official realizes that A1 is showing a symptom of a concussion and blows the whistle to stop the game. The official tells the coach that A1 "appears dizzy" and beckons the coach, and/or trainer, onto the court. The coach, realizing that he has used up all of his timeouts, and that if he steps onto the court he will have to remove his best player from the game, or take a time out at the expense of a technical foul, tells the official, from his bench, without ever stepping out onto the court, that, "A1 seems fine. I'll keep him in the game". By rule, if this were a normal injury, the sit a tick, or take a timeout, rule wouldn't apply because the coach and/or trainer did not come out onto the court. However, the way I read the new concussion rule, once the official feels that there is a concussion symptom, then even if the coach, and/or trainer, doesn't come out onto the court, the injured player who showed a symptom of a concussion must still sit a tick, or the coach must call a timeout, to keep him in the game. I am assuming that during the time interval to sit a tick, or during the timeout, a health care professional clears the player to continue playing in the game.
Here's what I got from one of our local "rules gurus":

If officials make a decision to "assist and defer" because they think the player is exhibiting signs or symptoms of a concussion, then that decision will require the player to have an assessment by a health care professional (HCP). Yes, such player will need to "sit a tick" unless such decision can be made by a HCP within the timeframe of a timeout. Our decision to "assist and defer" is made regardless if coach/trainer comes onto the floor or we beckoned coach/trainer to floor.
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