For whom the bell tolls....

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

It is often said in forums such as this that (with very rare exceptions) you cannot "unring the bell" after an erroneous foul call by an umpire.

For your consideration and discussion....

15U Travel tournament semi-final - loser goes home, winner advance to championship.

Bottom of 9 (scheduled 7), tie score, 2 outs, R3 and R1.

Batter rips a "hot" grounder down the 1B line. F3 goes to field the ball and is straddling the foul line to the outfield side of 1B when the ball caroms off his chest into foul territory. As the F3 goes to chase after the ball, the PU points in the direction of foul territory and then, almost immediately, points fair and "holds" the point.

R3 crosses home, and the BR reaches 1B about 3 steps ahead of the F3's toss to a covering F1.

What have you got (other than a $hitstorm)? Was the bell "rung" or not?

JM

[mbyron]

You didn't mention the rule code, or whether PU verbalized the call.

If no verbalization, I gather that F3 was not affected by the call. For both OBR and FED I would let the change stand. (I don't think the bell has rung until it has rung audibly; in this case we have a feinted ring.)

If he verbalized the call, in FED the ball is dead -- no unringing in this case. In OBR you'd have to judge whether anyone was affected by the call: if so, then again no unringing. Otherwise, game over.

[DonInKansas]

No bell there; a misplaced point is pretty easy to fix as most players aren't staring at you for the call. It's the booming verbal "FOUL" that will get you in the soup.

[UmpJM]

mbyron,

Game was being played under FED rules. There was NO verbalization from the PU, nor did he ever raise his hands in a "FOUL/TIME" mechanic. Simply a point foul, immediately followed by a "held" point fair.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mbyron,

Game was being played under FED rules. There was NO verbalization from the PU, nor did he ever raise his hands in a "FOUL/TIME" mechanic. Simply a point foul, immediately followed by a "held" point fair.

JM

Although no FED case deals with this situation, cases like 5.1.1B emphasize that the umpire verbalizing the call invokes the dead-ball provision of 5-1-1(h).

Together with your additional info, that would suggest the call on the field (fair ball) should stand.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Bottom of 9 (scheduled 7), tie score, 2 outs, R3 and R1.

It was the winning run? Then it counts.

If it was the tying run, I might have a different answer.

(Note to the humor impaired: It's a joke.)

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(Note to the humor impaired: It's a joke.)

Smilies are more efficient.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It was the winning run? Then it counts.

If it was the tying run, I might have a different answer.

(Note to the humor impaired: It's a joke.)

Bob,

I understand that the crew did NOT let the fact that it would be the winning run enter into their deliberation on the ultimate ruling.

JM

[David B]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Although no FED case deals with this situation, cases like 5.1.1B emphasize that the umpire verbalizing the call invokes the dead-ball provision of 5-1-1(h).

Together with your additional info, that would suggest the call on the field (fair ball) should stand.

That sounds exactly like I was thinking! Play on based on your description of the play.

Thansk
David

[cc6]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Gentlemen,

It is often said in forums such as this that (with very rare exceptions) you cannot "unring the bell" after an erroneous foul call by an umpire.

For your consideration and discussion....

15U Travel tournament semi-final - loser goes home, winner advance to championship.

Bottom of 9 (scheduled 7), tie score, 2 outs, R3 and R1.

Batter rips a "hot" grounder down the 1B line. F3 goes to field the ball and is straddling the foul line to the outfield side of 1B when the ball caroms off his chest into foul territory. As the F3 goes to chase after the ball, the PU points in the direction of foul territory and then, almost immediately, points fair and "holds" the point.

R3 crosses home, and the BR reaches 1B about 3 steps ahead of the F3's toss to a covering F1.

What have you got (other than a $hitstorm)? Was the bell "rung" or not?

JM

If I am the coach, I'm trying to convince the base umpire that he cannot change a call from foul to fair.

If I am the umpire, I briefly explain to the coach that I can change a call from foul to fair, and apologize for not being alert enough to make the right call in the first place. Then I'm walking off the field because the game is over.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I think ex-coaches-turned-umpires are worse than us ex-smokers. I can't stand cigarette smoke within 100 feet of me. Former coaches that umpire can't believe the crap that coaches pull, and are the first to cry, "Rat."

[Kevin Finnerty]

Sunday, my partner called a foul, nobody heard it, the ball wasn't foul and everybody kept running and the play went on without a hitch ... so the foul call didn't happen. We just ignored it, and talked about it later. He didn't ring the bell loud enough. Never had that happen before.

[TussAgee11]

A variant...

R2. 1 out. Runner rounds third, sees PUs point, relaxes and stops. Then sees his point fair, but is already caught off the bag and in a run-down.

I'd imagine that we might say that the bell did ring in this sitch. A player looking right at you was influenced by your crappy work a.

Of course an easier solution would be to not mess this one up in the first place...

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for playing. I appreciate your comments.

After the R3 scored, the BR touched 1B, and the F1 subsequently tagged 1B on the belated throw from F3, the BU made a casual "SAFE" mechanic, the offensive team started celebrating, and the DHC made a beeline for the PU.

The PU gave him a polite "Stop sign", he did (stop), and the PU went to confer with the BU. The PU and BU verified that:

1. In the PU's judgement, the ball WAS, indeed, fair.

2. The PU had screwed up with the initial point foul, but neither umpire had seen any of the involved players (BR, F3, & F1) react in any way to the erroneous "point".

3. The play would stand as a fair batted ball, BR safe, run scores, game over.

The PU so announced.

The ("recently promoted") DHC was not pleased.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

The ("recently promoted") DHC was not pleased.

Did anyone call the WHAAAAAAAmbulance?