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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 05:54pm
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Health Care Professional ?????????

BM - Was at the IAABO convention and Alan Goldberger said specifically to insist on a medical doctor that is willing to clear the player for his return to the game.

You might want to give Jeff Clark a ring / e-mail and ask him.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 06:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
BM - Was at the IAABO convention and Alan Goldberger said specifically to insist on a medical doctor that is willing to clear the player for his return to the game.
Unfortunately, that is not supported by the new rule. In fact, the reference to an MD (and to a written authorization to RTP) was actually removed in the rule. The NFHS specifically says that the "approved medical personnel" will depend on each state's laws and regulations. So each state will need to tell its officials who is approved to decide if the player can return to the game. The state might mandate a doctor, but they might not. They might say the trainer at the game is approved to make the decision. If that person says the kid is not concussed, then by rule, he can come back into the game.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 21, 2010, 06:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
Health Care Professional ?
According to Connecticut Public Act 10-62, An Act Concerning Student Athletes And Concussions, a Health Care Professional (HCP) is defined as: a Physician, a Physician's Assistant, an Advanced Practice Registered Nurse, or an Athletic Trainer trained in the evaluation and management of concussions.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2010, 07:47am
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

I understand that we don't grant a time out if there is a disqualified player until he, or she, is replaced. Probably the same thing with an untucked jersey (by the book). But in the case of an injured player (not a concussion, let's say a twisted ankle), or a bleeding player, aren't we allowed to grant a time out to the coach to keep that player in the game, if the injury can be dealt with, or the bleeding can be stopped, in the time frame of a time out. If what I say is true, what rule covers that?
In your OP, the coach didn't have any TOs left. He was trying to keep the player in the game by not going on the court. Not allowed for any injury (unless, the player is ready to play "immediately" and it's not for concussion symptoms).

If you change the situation, you change the outcome.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 25, 2010, 08:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Our state supervisor of officials told us he sits a tick.

So, he sits a tick.
Yeah, he did--in no uncertain terms!
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 25, 2010, 02:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiple Sports View Post
BM - Was at the IAABO convention and Alan Goldberger said specifically to insist on a medical doctor that is willing to clear the player for his return to the game.
There is a lengthy discussion of this (written by Goldberger, who is a lawyer) in the current IAABO newsletter. He does not say it must be a doctor. Instead, he quotes the rule and says officials must know what their state association determines to be "appropriate health-care professionals" which could be medical doctors, osteopathic physicians, and certified athletic trainers.

He offers this rather common sense advice:
At the end of the day, officials continue to be “empowered” to remove players, but need not obtain written credentials of the health-care professional on the sidelines.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 25, 2010, 03:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Billy:

There have been a number of relevant Rules and Casebook Plays listed in this thread so far. But the key to this play is: The Game Official has stopped play because, in his judgment, thinks that the Player has suffered a concussion, has lost consciousness or has become unconscious, or is so injured that the GO believes that the Player should immediately be attended to by Bench Personnel, and therefore beckons for the Head Coach to leave the Bench and attend to his player. Once the GO beckons the HC onto the Court, the player must leave and cannot re-enter the game (if certain Rules requirements are met) until the first opportunity to substitute after the clock has started. I have highlighted the words “beckons the HC onto the Court” because it is the key action by the GO that applies to all similar situations.

MTD, Sr.
MTD nails this situation perfectly. I am always slow to beckon the coach; but once I've made the decision to do so, it's been done and the player needs to be replaced. The coach cannot circumvent this requirement by refusing to come onto the court. Whether he comes or not, he's been beckoned.

Signs of a concussion would only make it more vital to follow the rules as written.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 12:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Team A trails 56 to 55 with 60 seconds left in the game. Team A has the ball and is setting up a last second shot. A1, Team A's best player, accidentally trips over his own feet coming of a screen. A1 falls and hits his head on the floor. As he tries to stand up he stumbles a few steps. The official realizes that A1 is showing a symptom of a concussion and blows the whistle to stop the game. The official tells the coach that A1 "appears dizzy" and beckons the coach, and/or trainer, onto the court. The coach, realizing that he has used up all of his timeouts, and that if he steps onto the court he will have to remove his best player from the game, or take a time out at the expense of a technical foul, tells the official, from his bench, without ever stepping out onto the court, that, "A1 seems fine. I'll keep him in the game". By rule, if this were a normal injury, the sit a tick, or take a timeout, rule wouldn't apply because the coach and/or trainer did not come out onto the court. However, the way I read the new concussion rule, once the official feels that there is a concussion symptom, then even if the coach, and/or trainer, doesn't come out onto the court, the injured player who showed a symptom of a concussion must still sit a tick, or the coach must call a timeout, to keep him in the game. I am assuming that during the time interval to sit a tick, or during the timeout, a health care professional clears the player to continue playing in the game.

Discussion?
Showing signs of a concussion...really...did you go to school for this? Just because you fall down and hit your head doesn't mean you have a concussion. We need to be really really careful here.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 01:21pm
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Originally Posted by GoodwillRef View Post
Showing signs of a concussion...really...did you go to school for this? Just because you fall down and hit your head doesn't mean you have a concussion.
Goodwill, obviously, I don't know you from Adam, so if I'm way off-base, I apologize in advance. But you seem to be WAY up on a high horse today. Your comments in three different threads seem to be talking down to others.

WTF is your comment above supposed to be getting at? BillyMac gave a GREAT example of how the new rule might play out in a real game. The rule says if the player shows "signs, symptoms or behaviors" of a concussion, the player MUST be removed from the game.

Very few refs are medical doctors who went to school to recognize concussions, yet the rules MANDATE that if we see signs, symptoms or behaviors of a concussion (and they give us several examples, plus a long training video online) that we act on that.

Obviously falling down doesn't mean that you have a concussion. But we're not given a rule about HAVING a concussion. We're given a rule about the signs, symptoms and behaviors of a concussion (which, you may recall, they have given us several examples of, as well as a long training video online).

So if you're trying to be funny somehow, or if you don't realize that you sound like an elitist prick (which I've been called on this forum many times, although I still contend I'm not an elitist), then I apologize. Otherwise, I really think you need to realize that there are lots of people on this forum who have a lot of knowledge and are trying to dig deeper into the rule than simply realizing that falling down does not necessarily give one a concussion.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 01:21pm
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Originally Posted by GoodwillRef View Post
Showing signs of a concussion...really...did you go to school for this? Just because you fall down and hit your head doesn't mean you have a concussion. We need to be really really careful here.
Not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that since Billy isn't an MD he can't recognize the signs of a concussion? You're right, of course, that just because the kid gets hit in the head does not mean he has a concussion. However, if Billy sees the hit to the head, followed by the player getting back up and stumbling in a way he hasn't before, and there's no obvious reason for the stumbling...sounds to me like Billy needs to be really, really careful to do what's right for the kid here.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by GoodwillRef View Post
Showing signs of a concussion...really...did you go to school for this? Just because you fall down and hit your head doesn't mean you have a concussion. We need to be really really careful here.
Nope, Billy read the damn rule book instead. You should give it a shot because you obviously don't understand the application of the new rule that we've been given.

In the COMMENTS ON THE 2010-11 RULES REVISIONS at the back of the rulebook, we as officials are directed by the NFHS rulesmakers that "any player who exhibits signs, symptoms or behavior consistent with a concussion, such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion or balance problems, shall be immediately removed from play and shall not return until cleared by an appropriate health-care professional."

Yes, the FED sureashell wants us to be careful, but not in the way that you're suggesting. Their explicit instructions are "Officials, coaches and administrators should be looking for signs of concussion in all athletes and should immediately remove any suspected concussed athlete from play and make every effort to ensure a concussed athlete does not continue to participate."

Not only was your point completely wrong, it was the polar opposite of the instructions that the rules-makers have given us. Terrible advice!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 02:31pm
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Goodwill, obviously, I don't know you from Adam, so if I'm way off-base, I apologize in advance. But you seem to be WAY up on a high horse today. Your comments in three different threads seem to be talking down to others.

WTF is your comment above supposed to be getting at? BillyMac gave a GREAT example of how the new rule might play out in a real game. The rule says if the player shows "signs, symptoms or behaviors" of a concussion, the player MUST be removed from the game.

Very few refs are medical doctors who went to school to recognize concussions, yet the rules MANDATE that if we see signs, symptoms or behaviors of a concussion (and they give us several examples, plus a long training video online) that we act on that.

Obviously falling down doesn't mean that you have a concussion. But we're not given a rule about HAVING a concussion. We're given a rule about the signs, symptoms and behaviors of a concussion (which, you may recall, they have given us several examples of, as well as a long training video online).

So if you're trying to be funny somehow, or if you don't realize that you sound like an elitist prick (which I've been called on this forum many times, although I still contend I'm not an elitist), then I apologize. Otherwise, I really think you need to realize that there are lots of people on this forum who have a lot of knowledge and are trying to dig deeper into the rule than simply realizing that falling down does not necessarily give one a concussion.
As someone who knows most people from Adam, let me just ask one question.

You're saying there's a training video online?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
As someone who knows most people from Adam, let me just ask one question.

You're saying there's a training video online?
Yes.

There's a link to it on the front page of nfhs.org
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 05:36pm
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Field Sobriety Test ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef View Post
Showing signs of a concussion...really...did you go to school for this?
I didn't have to go to school to learn this. It's all on page 75 of the NFHS 2010-11 Basketball Rulebook.

Check it out:

Common Symptoms of Concussion Include:
• headache
• fogginess
• difficulty concentrating
• easily confused
• slowed thought processes
• difficulty with memory
• nausea
• lack of energy, tiredness
• dizziness, poor balance
• blurred vision
• sensitive to light and sounds
• mood changes- irritable, anxious, or tearful
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 26, 2010, 05:42pm
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Judging by those symptoms, I'm pretty sure I have a concussion this afternoon.
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