Illegal Uniforms ???

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I concur. Any other interpretations out there in Official Forum Land?

I agree with the answers by sselter. Also, there is no statute of limitations on an illegal uniform direct T to the head coach. If it can be proven that the player participated while wearing an illegal uniform, then the penalty is warranted.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree with the answers by sselter. Also, there is no statute of limitations on an illegal uniform direct T to the head coach. If it can be proven that the player participated while wearing an illegal uniform, then the penalty is warranted.

Just so that I'm clear:

If A25 enters the game, but is not in the book, and leaves the game with no one noticing, then A25 does not need to be added (with a penalty of a T) unless he is substituted back into the game.

If A16 is in the game (and in the book) and leaves, then HC of team A can be issued a direct T for the illegal uniform at any point that it is dicovered until the official's jurisdiction ends.


New play (call if play #5): A16 is not listed in the official scorebook and is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 enters the game and the scorer does not notify the official that A16 needs to be entered into the book and none of the officials notice that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 leaves the game 1 minute later and a)does not return or b) returns in the fourth quarter. In both a) and b), after A16 leaves the game, the situation is brought to the attention of the officials.

Question: In a) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? Does it matter that A16 is not in the book?

In b) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? When A16 attempts to enter the game in the 4th quarter, is A also issued a T for adding the player into the book?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Just so that I'm clear:

If A25 enters the game, but is not in the book, and leaves the game with no one noticing, then A25 does not need to be added (with a penalty of a T) unless he is substituted back into the game.

If A16 is in the game (and in the book) and leaves, then HC of team A can be issued a direct T for the illegal uniform at any point that it is dicovered until the official's jurisdiction ends.


New play (call if play #5): A16 is not listed in the official scorebook and is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 enters the game and the scorer does not notify the official that A16 needs to be entered into the book and none of the officials notice that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 leaves the game 1 minute later and a)does not return or b) returns in the fourth quarter. In both a) and b), after A16 leaves the game, the situation is brought to the attention of the officials.

Question: In a) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? Does it matter that A16 is not in the book?

In b) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? When A16 attempts to enter the game in the 4th quarter, is A also issued a T for adding the player into the book?

My opinion is to charge two technical fouls at the time that you learn of the infractions. One goes directly to the head coach for allowing A16 to participate with an illegal uniform and the other is a Team tech for requiring the scorer to add a player after the 10-minute mark.

I think that the NFHS play ruling from last year is simply wrong. As the referee one cannot allow a team to play someone not on the roster and get away without penalty simply because the scorer fails to properly notify the crew. General fairness dictates otherwise.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My opinion is to charge two technical fouls at the time that you learn of the infractions. One goes directly to the head coach for allowing A16 to participate with an illegal uniform and the other is a Team tech for requiring the scorer to add a player after the 10-minute mark.

I think that the NFHS play ruling from last year is simply wrong. As the referee one cannot allow a team to play someone not on the roster and get away without penalty simply because the scorer fails to properly notify the crew. General fairness dictates otherwise.

Are you basing your ruling on the plainly written rule, or on "general fairness?"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Are you basing your ruling on the plainly written rule, or on "general fairness?"

Both.
Rule references are 2-11-1&2 as well as 10-1-2b.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Both.
Rule references are 2-11-1&2 as well as 10-1-2b.

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Agree....While they did drop the wording of the former rule that restricted illegal uniform penalties to only being applicable as a player entered the game, I don't think they intended that a T be called in the 4th quarter for a player with an illegal jersey participating only in the 1st quarter.

At most, I think the desired interpratation is that a T will be called if an illegal jersey is discovered while the player is participating....I do not believe that it is intended to be retroactive.

In fact, they probably intended the penalizable window to be the same as it was before and only meant to change the recipient of the penalty and limit it to one per game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Obviously, I disagree with you. You didn't seem to RTFQ very carefully.

There are two issues here.
1. a team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.
2. a team member wears an illegal uniform while participating

These two infractions have nothing to do with each other. There is no way that the rules call for only one technical foul for both infractions.

Furthermore, what the heck are you talking about in terms of penalizing the scorer? I never advocated such. The scorer is supposed to be a neutral member of the officiating crew. Occasionally these people screw up and fail to do their job properly, but that doesn't mean that a team cannot be penalized later when the infraction is discovered. That is only true for situations when the penalty part of the rule states "while being violated."

I love how you write that my citations are completely irrelevant, yet then accuse me of advocating that officials fail to follow the rules as written.

I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.