Illegal Uniforms ???

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

OK, so you're not pleased that I broke it down into a few different situations, each with a slight variation. I can understand that. But the bottom line is:

Are my interpretations correct?

Can a general statement be made regarding NFHS 10-5-4 that the infraction can be penalized at any time, up until the officials leave the confines of the gym, if the player with the illegal uniform (illegal number) actually participated in the game as one of the five players, even if there was a time lag between said player participating and the discovery of the infraction?

For simplifying purposes:

Play 1: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform while he is on the court.

Play 2: A16 never participates, but his name and number are in the book.

Play 3: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform just after he leaves the game for a substitute.

Play 4: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform long after he leaves the game, even after the final horn has sounded.


Assuming that I have those situations correct, these are my interpretations:

Play 1 - T.
Play 2 - No T.
Play 3 and Play 4 are logically equivalent. I would be inclined to rule both as T's.

The relevant question: Is there a "statute of limitations" on when an illegal uniform T can be issued?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Play 1: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform while he is on the court.
Play 2: A16 never participates, but his name and number are in the book.
Play 3: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform just after he leaves the game for a substitute.
Play 4: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform long after he leaves the game, even after the final horn has sounded.
Assuming that I have those situations correct, these are my interpretations:
Play 1 - T.
Play 2 - No T.
Play 3 and Play 4 are logically equivalent. I would be inclined to rule both as T's.

I concur. Any other interpretations out there in Official Forum Land?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sseltser

The relevant question: Is there a "statute of limitations" on when an illegal uniform T can be issued?

I don't think so, but I'm willing to hear other viewpoints.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

For simplifying purposes:

Play 1: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform while he is on the court.

Play 2: A16 never participates, but his name and number are in the book.

Play 3: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform just after he leaves the game for a substitute.

Play 4: The officials notice A16 wearing an illegal uniform long after he leaves the game, even after the final horn has sounded.


Assuming that I have those situations correct, these are my interpretations:

Play 1 - T.
Play 2 - No T.
Play 3 and Play 4 are logically equivalent. I would be inclined to rule both as T's.

The relevant question: Is there a "statute of limitations" on when an illegal uniform T can be issued?

Agreed with 1 and 2.

3 and 4 are the same as "player with the wrong number in the book who doesn't score or foul" questions we've gone on and on (and on) about over the years. No specific guidance, as far as I recall (but it's still summer and my mind is a million miles from basketball).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I concur. Any other interpretations out there in Official Forum Land?

I agree with the answers by sselter. Also, there is no statute of limitations on an illegal uniform direct T to the head coach. If it can be proven that the player participated while wearing an illegal uniform, then the penalty is warranted.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

3 and 4 are the same as "player with the wrong number in the book who doesn't score or foul" questions we've gone on and on (and on) about over the years. No specific guidance, as far as I recall (but it's still summer and my mind is a million miles from basketball).

That changed last season when the NFHS did provide some specific guidance.

See 3.2.2 Sit C.

Of course, I've taken the position that the NFHS play ruling is incorrect as it does not mesh with the text of the NFHS rules book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

See 3.2.2 Sit C.

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

4-34:
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court
at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree with the answers by sselter. Also, there is no statute of limitations on an illegal uniform direct T to the head coach. If it can be proven that the player participated while wearing an illegal uniform, then the penalty is warranted.

Just so that I'm clear:

If A25 enters the game, but is not in the book, and leaves the game with no one noticing, then A25 does not need to be added (with a penalty of a T) unless he is substituted back into the game.

If A16 is in the game (and in the book) and leaves, then HC of team A can be issued a direct T for the illegal uniform at any point that it is dicovered until the official's jurisdiction ends.


New play (call if play #5): A16 is not listed in the official scorebook and is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 enters the game and the scorer does not notify the official that A16 needs to be entered into the book and none of the officials notice that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 leaves the game 1 minute later and a)does not return or b) returns in the fourth quarter. In both a) and b), after A16 leaves the game, the situation is brought to the attention of the officials.

Question: In a) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? Does it matter that A16 is not in the book?

In b) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? When A16 attempts to enter the game in the 4th quarter, is A also issued a T for adding the player into the book?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Are my interpretations correct?

It appears to me that the key word in 10-5-4 is "participate." I take that to mean a player, and not bench personnel.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Just so that I'm clear:

If A25 enters the game, but is not in the book, and leaves the game with no one noticing, then A25 does not need to be added (with a penalty of a T) unless he is substituted back into the game.

If A16 is in the game (and in the book) and leaves, then HC of team A can be issued a direct T for the illegal uniform at any point that it is dicovered until the official's jurisdiction ends.


New play (call if play #5): A16 is not listed in the official scorebook and is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 enters the game and the scorer does not notify the official that A16 needs to be entered into the book and none of the officials notice that A16 is wearing an illegal uniform. A16 leaves the game 1 minute later and a)does not return or b) returns in the fourth quarter. In both a) and b), after A16 leaves the game, the situation is brought to the attention of the officials.

Question: In a) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? Does it matter that A16 is not in the book?

In b) Should HC A be issued a T for the illegal uniform when the officials notice that he participated? When A16 attempts to enter the game in the 4th quarter, is A also issued a T for adding the player into the book?

My opinion is to charge two technical fouls at the time that you learn of the infractions. One goes directly to the head coach for allowing A16 to participate with an illegal uniform and the other is a Team tech for requiring the scorer to add a player after the 10-minute mark.

I think that the NFHS play ruling from last year is simply wrong. As the referee one cannot allow a team to play someone not on the roster and get away without penalty simply because the scorer fails to properly notify the crew. General fairness dictates otherwise.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My opinion is to charge two technical fouls at the time that you learn of the infractions. One goes directly to the head coach for allowing A16 to participate with an illegal uniform and the other is a Team tech for requiring the scorer to add a player after the 10-minute mark.

I think that the NFHS play ruling from last year is simply wrong. As the referee one cannot allow a team to play someone not on the roster and get away without penalty simply because the scorer fails to properly notify the crew. General fairness dictates otherwise.

Are you basing your ruling on the plainly written rule, or on "general fairness?"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Are you basing your ruling on the plainly written rule, or on "general fairness?"

Both.
Rule references are 2-11-1&2 as well as 10-1-2b.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Both.
Rule references are 2-11-1&2 as well as 10-1-2b.

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Agree....While they did drop the wording of the former rule that restricted illegal uniform penalties to only being applicable as a player entered the game, I don't think they intended that a T be called in the 4th quarter for a player with an illegal jersey participating only in the 1st quarter.

At most, I think the desired interpratation is that a T will be called if an illegal jersey is discovered while the player is participating....I do not believe that it is intended to be retroactive.

In fact, they probably intended the penalizable window to be the same as it was before and only meant to change the recipient of the penalty and limit it to one per game.

[MD Longhorn]

Really guys?

Uniform number 16 is illegal and has been for quite a while. Does this EVER come up? It's not like someone accidentally and randomly puts numbers on jerseys. Perhaps if this does come up, there is no in-game penalty, but whoever ironed on the number to the jersey gets fired.