Illegal Uniforms ???

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Really guys?

Uniform number 16 is illegal and has been for quite a while. Does this EVER come up? It's not like someone accidentally and randomly puts numbers on jerseys. Perhaps if this does come up, there is no in-game penalty, but whoever ironed on the number to the jersey gets fired.

True, but illegal numbers are far from the only way to infringe on the uniform requirements...illegal colors, patterns, logos, etc. Using the number "16" is only a vehicle to discuss the application of the penalty.

It was only a couple of years ago where the rules were changed to require the home team to wear whilte. Also, there have been several occurrances over the years of a team buying new jerseys only to find out that, while they look really cool and may be acceptable by some leagues, they violate the NFHS requirements.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Uniform number 16 is illegal and has been for quite a while. Does this EVER come up?

I've never seen it in any high school game I've worked, but I've seen it a few times in middle school games. That also goes for white undershirts on visiting jerseys. ("It's just a high school rule," I was once told.)

Our board's orders are to enforce these rules at all levels, except the "home team must wear white" rule is only enforceable at the varsity level. (The board recognizes that sub-varsity teams often get hand-me-downs.) I'm curious how other boards nationwide enforce the uniform/undershirt rules, rec games and scrimmages notwithstanding.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I've never seen it in any high school game I've worked, but I've seen it a few times in middle school games. That also goes for white undershirts on visiting jerseys. ("It's just a high school rule," I was once told.)

Our board's orders are to enforce these rules at all levels, except the "home team must wear white" rule is only enforceable at the varsity level. (The board recognizes that sub-varsity teams often get hand-me-downs.) I'm curious how other boards nationwide enforce the uniform/undershirt rules, rec games and scrimmages notwithstanding.

Portland...

Undershirts at all HS levels (V, JV, F)....not that every single official enforces it.

Uniforms....V only. JV & F have statewide exceptions for the reasons you state.

[Adam]

I enforce undershirts at all school-sanctioned levels during the season. Gold Crown (similar to AAU) is a bit more lax with undershirts, as is summer ball, due to the nature of the leagues (players are using reversable shirts and often flip it around on the court.)

Uniforms: V only. Yes, this means I work summer games with numbers that would draw Ts in season games.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There are no penalties listed anywhere for the scorer failing to follow the rules that you cited. Your rules citations are completely irrelevant. And fer sure there's nothing written anywhere in the rules that would penalize a team twice for committing one supposed rules infraction. Au contraire, the rules committee very specifically stated their intent and purpose when implementing this rule that "This rule change reduces the penalty from one technical foul to each starter and substitute to a maximum of one technical foul assessed directly to the head coach."

What you are advocating is that officials should fail to follow the rules as written, and instead follow what you personally happen to think is "fair". That's just wrong.

Obviously, I disagree with you. You didn't seem to RTFQ very carefully.

There are two issues here.
1. a team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.
2. a team member wears an illegal uniform while participating

These two infractions have nothing to do with each other. There is no way that the rules call for only one technical foul for both infractions.

Furthermore, what the heck are you talking about in terms of penalizing the scorer? I never advocated such. The scorer is supposed to be a neutral member of the officiating crew. Occasionally these people screw up and fail to do their job properly, but that doesn't mean that a team cannot be penalized later when the infraction is discovered. That is only true for situations when the penalty part of the rule states "while being violated."

I love how you write that my citations are completely irrelevant, yet then accuse me of advocating that officials fail to follow the rules as written.

I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There are two issues here.
1. a team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.
2. a team member wears an illegal uniform while participating
These two infractions have nothing to do with each other. There is no way that the rules call for only one technical foul for both infractions.

I gotta agree with Nevaderef here.

Here's a section of a paragraph from my article that states my interpretation:

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players.

Note that illegal uniforms (illegal numbers) aren't mentioned in the section. They are mentioned here, again my interpretation:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

In addition, technical fouls for changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players, are charged to the team. Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (illegal numbers) are charged directly to the head coach.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.

Cool. Now tell me how we enforce rules 2-11-1&2. Just exactly what are we supposed to do if the scorer doesn't fulfil all of his obligations under those rules. And also please supply rules citations to back up what you tell us to do in that situation.

And tell me again why we are supposed to ignore a plainly written FED case play and do something that's completely contradictory to that case play just because you don't happen to agree with that case play. You seemed to ignore that little detail quite nicely in your response.

[BillyMac]

I'm still finalizing my article and trying to make sure that everything is correct before I submit it.

Today at work I was thinking about whether or not there was a "statue of limitations" on duplicate numbers. I recalled that when I first learned the rules about thirty years ago we learned that technical fouls for illegal numbers can only be charged if the player with the illegal number actually participates in the game as one of the five players on the court. We also learned that technical fouls for duplicate numbers can be charged at any time after the ten minute mark, even if the player with the duplicate number never participates as one of the five players in the game. Then I started thinking about a case play that I remembered dealing with the "duplicate" numbers 0 and 00, and that technical fouls could only be charged if both 0 or 00 participated as one of the five players in the game. When I got home I looked up the case play and discovered that 0 and 0 are not "duplicate" numbers (although computer scorebooks treat then as duplicate numbers), but rather, they are "illegal" numbers, with the only catch being that when the second "zero" participates as one of the five players in the game, the second "zero" is the illegal number.

Here's the case play:

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)

I guess what they say is true, "You can learn something every day". I also guess that, contrary to what they say, "You can teach an old dog new tricks".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm clearly advocating that officials enforce the rules which I cited as written.

I agree that there are two possible infractions which may be penalized independently in the discussion at hand. But, like JR, I don't understand why you list rule 2-11 as a reference. Scorer's duties. There is no penalty if the scorer is incompetent, blind, drunk, or not there at all.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A team member who participates is not listed on team roster supplied to the scorer prior to the game.

Let's be careful here, especially for our rookie officials. The penalty is not for the team member participating, but rather, for the scorer having to add the name to the scorebook.

Here's my interpretation:

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game ... If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty ... These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's be careful here, especially for our rookie officials. The penalty is not for the team member participating, but rather, for the scorer having to add the name to the scorebook.

Here's my interpretation:

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game ... If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty ... These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

Billy, not sure where you stand on your essay for the membership of your board, but to be complete, you may want to add the caveat that the team's requirement is to supply the scorer with the proper roster, and, if the official book needs to be changed after the 10:00 minute mark, but it is because of an error by the scorer in copying the roster that was supplied, then no penalty should be assessed.

[Eastshire]

Just to toss two cents in:

I think illegal numbers is the only type of illegal uniforms you could reasonable go back in time to penalize.

If A16 is listed in the scorebook, his participation will be a matter of fact when the scorer marks the book that he participated in a given quarter. So we have in the official scorebook a record of both his participation and his illegal number.

For other uniform violations, we would have no record of whether the uniform was illegal while the player was participating.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Billy, not sure where you stand on your essay for the membership of your board, but to be complete, you may want to add the caveat that the team's requirement is to supply the scorer with the proper roster, and, if the official book needs to be changed after the 10:00 minute mark, but it is because of an error by the scorer in copying the roster that was supplied, then no penalty should be assessed.

Some administrative infraction technical foul situations can occur before the jump ball is even tossed. If a team fails to supply the official scorer with its roster, and/or designate its five starting players at least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, then a team technical foul is charged.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Just to toss two cents in:
For other uniform violations, we would have no record of whether the uniform was illegal while the player was participating.

Are you suggesting that someone would/could change the color of thier jersey during the game or remove an illegal trim, side panel, number style, etc.?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you suggesting that someone would/could change the color of thier jersey during the game or remove an illegal trim, side panel, number style, etc.?

1. Switch from the JV shirt into the varsity shirt he was supposed to be wearing. Same number.
2. He goes to the locker room injured and returns in street clothes.