Jump stop vs "up and down"

[APG]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yes, in my judgement if A1 ends the dribble to attempt a shot and realizes if the shot is release it will be blocked..

Could you site specifically which part of 4-44 you are using to call traveling?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yes, in my judgement if A1 ends the dribble to attempt a shot and realizes if the shot is release it will be blocked..

Via what rule?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If A1 ends his dribble with a foot on the floor, jumps off that foot with the intention to shoot but seeing B1 will block the shot decides to land with both feet simultaneously, are you saying you would call a travel?

As written above, of course it's a travel by rule.

The player ended his dribble. It doesn't matter whether the player established a pivot foot while ending the dribble either. NFHS rules 4-44-3(b) and 4-44-4(a), as previously cited, both now say that the if the player then jumps to shoot, neither foot can return to the floor before that player shoots or passes.

You have to distinguish between the actual end of the dribble and the jump to shoot. As written above by yourself, A1 jumped to shoot, NOT to do a jump stop. And that's why it's traveling when he came down with the ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rules 4-44-3(b) and 4-44-4(a), as previously cited,

In 4-44-3 the player has established a pivot foot.

In 4-44-4 neither foot can be a pivot.

Neither of these apply to the play at hand.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As written above, of course it's a travel by rule.

The player ended his dribble. It doesn't matter whether the player established a pivot foot while ending the dribble either. NFHS rules 4-44-3(b) and 4-44-4(a), as previously cited, both now say that the if the player then jumps to shoot, neither foot can return to the floor before that player shoots or passes.

You have to distinguish between the actual end of the dribble and the jump to shoot. As written above by yourself, A1 jumped to shoot, NOT to do a jump stop. And that's why it's traveling when he came down with the ball.

4-44 Article 3...After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:

b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

That's the part that gets me. In my play, A1 hasn't established a pivot foot yet has he? He may have a pivot foot if the second foot touches the floor, or he may not have one if he executes a legal jump stop.

[Camron Rust]

Legal move. Nothing in 4-44 prohibits it. It is a textbook jump stop.

The presence of B1 is irrelevant...the proximity of another player does not affect the travel rule.


It doesn't matter "why" the player jumped. The only things that matter are:

1. the fact that they caught the ball with only one foot on the floor
2. the fact that they jumped off of that foot without the other foot touching
3. the fact that they landed on both feet simultaneously

Having jumped off of one foot after catching the ball, no pivot has been established (defined in Articles 1 and 2). As such, Articles 3 and 4 do not apply...they are only relevant once the pivot is established.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Based on what? Nothing in 4-44 mention what the player's intent was/might have been when he jumped and subsequently landed.

Say what?

The original post said that "Player A1 ENDS his dribble and JUMPS OFF ONE FOOT IN AN APPARENT ATTEMPT TO TRY FOR GOAL."

A1's attempt was to try for goal!

After ending the dribble, A1 under NFHS rule 4-44-2 could either have already established a pivot foot or ended up landing on both feet simultaneously without establishing a pivot foot.

If A1 established a pivot foot, NFHS rule 4-44-3(b) says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

If A1 didn't establish a pivot foot after ending his dribble, NFHS rule 4-44-4(a) says "After coming to a stop where neither foot may be a pivot, one or both feet may be lifted, but mat not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

Traveling in both cases.

You people are confusing the end of the dribble with the player going airborne to shoot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Legal move. Nothing in 4-44 prohibits it. It is a textbook jump stop.

The presence of B1 is irrelevant...the proximity of another player does not affect the travel rule.


It doesn't matter "why" the player jumped. The only things that matter are:

1. the fact that they caught the ball with only one foot on the floor
2. the fact that they jumped off of that foot without the other foot touching
3. the fact that they landed on both feet simultaneously

Having jumped off of one foot after catching the ball, no pivot has been established (defined in Articles 1 and 2). As such, Articles 3 and 4 do not apply...they are only relevant once the pivot is established.

Camron, the above isn't applicable. The original post said that the dribble had ended. After the dribble ended, the player then jumped to shoot. You're talking above about the dribble not having ended. That's 2 completely different situations.

You can END a dribble with a jump stop. But if you do a jump stop AFTER a dribble has ended, you're traveling.

That's where all the confusion is coming in this thread.

[BillyMac]

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

I had a similar situation a few months ago:

I Think I Blew One Today ???

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

The original post said that "Player A1 ENDS his dribble and JUMPS OFF ONE FOOT IN AN APPARENT ATTEMPT TO TRY FOR GOAL."

A1's attempt was to try for goal!

After ending the dribbler, A1 under NFHS rule 4-44-2 could either have established a pivot foot or landed on both feet simultaneously without establishing a pivot foot.

If A1 established a pivot foot, NFHS rule 4-44-3(b) says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

If A1 didn't establish a pivot foot after ending his dribble, NFHS rule 4-44-4(a) says "After coming to a stop where neither foot may be a pivot, one or both feet may be lifted, but mat not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

Traveling in both cases.

You people are confusing the end of the dribble with the player going airborne to shoot.

One has nothing to do with the other. He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor. He jumped, presumably to shoot, but then for whatever reason chose not to shoot. Instead, he landed simultaneously on both feet.

Legal play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You can END a dribble with a jump stop. But if you do a jump stop AFTER a dribble has ended, you're traveling.

Is there a time limit?

4-44-2: A player ......... may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows.........


It never happens, but I don't see why the player couldn't catch the ball, then wait for any length of time before jumping off one foot and landing on two without a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor.

He jumped, presumably to shoot, but then for whatever reason chose not to shoot. Instead, he landed simultaneously on both feet.

Legal play.

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot. It is now illegal by the rules that I cited in both cases for A1 to jump and then have a foot return to the ground before letting the ball go on a pass or shot. It doesn't matter whether A1 landed in a jump stop either. That's completely irrelevant by rule.

What you're trying to say is that a player can end a dribble, and AFTER ending that dribble, he can then continue on and do a jump stop. Don't think so. You can end a dribble with a jump stop, but you can't legally do a jump stop after ending a dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is there a time limit?

4-44-2: A player ......... may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows.........


It never happens, but I don't see why the player couldn't catch the ball, then wait for any length of time before jumping off one foot and landing on two without a violation.

And you're talking above about a player that HASN't ended their dribble. In the play being discussed, the dribble has ended. Iow, your play above is completely irrelevant.

That's what I'm trying to get through to everybody.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot.

Not true.

4-44-2b: If one foot is on the floor, it is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.

My understanding is that this never happened in the play at hand.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you're talking above about a player that HASN't ended their dribble. In the play being discussed, the dribble has ended. Iow, your play above is completely irrelevant.

That's what I'm trying to get through to everybody.

I see you need to read the whole thing.

4-44-2: A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:

When he caught the ball, it ended.