Jump stop vs "up and down"

[docofficial]

Player A1 ends his dribble and jumps off one foot in an apparent attempt to try for a goal. Player B1 jumps to block the try. So A1 does not release the ball and lands on the floor with both feet simultaneously.

What is the ruling here?

Even though everyone in the gym will want a traveling violation. I cannot see why this move is any different from a legal jump stop. Am I right?

Thanks.

[truerookie]

Traveling!!! in your own description is was a shot attempt and when A1 realize the shot was going to be block A1 decided to return to the floor with the ball.

[docofficial]

Can you cite the rule which makes this a travel?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by docofficial

Can you cite the rule which makes this a travel?

Rule 4-44

In the OP it was stated the player ended his dribble in an apparent shot attempt. So in my judgement A1 would have released the shot if B1 did not make an attempt to block it. But, since B1 made that attempt A1decided to returned to the floor with the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Rule 4-44-3(b) or 4-44-4(a), depending on whether a pivot foot was established at the end of the dribble or not.

In the OP it was stated the player ended his dribble in an apparent shot attempt. So in my judgement A1 would have released the shot if B1 did not make an attempt to block it. But, since B1 made that attempt A1decided to returned to the floor with the ball.

Narrowed down the cite.....

Travel, no matter what.

[drofficial]

But I still don't follow.

Imagine a completely legal jump stop. The player catches the ball (ends his dribble) with one foot on the floor and jumps off that foot and lands simulataneously on both feet (4-44-2b2). If he decides to shoot while in the air, that is legal. But if he lands on both feet at the same time, that is also legal. By rule, it does not matter if he intends to shoot or not.

Can you explain.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by docofficial

Player A1 ends his dribble and jumps off one foot in an apparent attempt to try for a goal. Player B1 jumps to block the try. So A1 does not release the ball and lands on the floor with both feet simultaneously.

What is the ruling here?

Even though everyone in the gym will want a traveling violation. I cannot see why this move is any different from a legal jump stop. Am I right?

Thanks.

Assuming the other foot never touched the floor after ending the dribble until both feet landed simultaneously, this is not at travel.

[johnny1784]

Does anyone know of video to watch or purchase on line for travel and illegal dribble violations?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by docofficial

Player A1 ends his dribble and jumps off one foot in an apparent attempt to try for a goal. Player B1 jumps to block the try. So A1 does not release the ball and lands on the floor with both feet simultaneously.

For the last time because I'm just repeating myself now...

This is the original post. A1 is jumping off of one foot to try for goal. Note---> "TO TRY FOR GOAL"! A1 is NOT jumping off of one foot to do a jump stop--i.e. to land on both feet simultaneously.

I repeat.....

A1 is NOT jumping off of one foot to do a jump stop!!!!

You people are all injecting something into the situation that is not only wrong but is completely irrelevant. You're all trying to say that A1 was NOT jumping for goal as written explicitly above, but is doing a jump-stop instead.

Reading Is Fundamental!!!!

The rules that I cited definitively cover what a player jumping to try for goal can legally do and not do. And what a player jumping for a try on goal can't legally do is come back down with the ball.

Again, we're discussing a player jumping for goal and coming down with the ball. We're NOT discussing a player executing a jump-stop. That's a completely different scenario than the one outlined in the original post above.

[mbyron]

JR, I don't think 4-44-3 applies, since it is prefaced by "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot," which the player in the OP has NOT done. Therefore the restriction of 4-44-3b, which prevents the shooter from coming down with the ball, does not apply.

So we need to ask whether 4-44-2 applies and he's established a pivot. It seems to me that the OP meets exactly the conditions of 4-44-2a3:
"A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop,
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land
on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case."

The player in the OP has ended the dribble and landed on one foot. Since the other foot did NOT come down, he has NOT established a pivot. Thus he can go up and come down on both feet (a jump stop), whether or not the reason he went up was for a try.

What am I missing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

What am I missing?

You're missing that A1 went up to shoot. A1 did not go up to do a jump stop. It's that simple, Mike.

If you establish a pivot foot before you go up and shoot(usual situation), rule 4-44-3(b) applies. That's true for both ending a dribble with a jump shot or a lay-up.

If you don't have a pivot foot established(as in after a simultaneous landing on both feet a la a jump stop), then rule 4-44-4(a) applies if a player then goes up and shoots.

In the OP, I don't care how A1 ended his dribble. I don't care if it was via a jump stop, a regular stop or if he stuck a landing off the parallel bars while dribbling. That's all completely irrelevant to the question that was asked. The question asked was what is the call if A1 leaves his feet to shoot but comes back down with the ball instead. Simple question with a very simple answer. Traveling.

All that matters rules-wise is that we know A1 went up to shoot. And we know that because the original post told us so. It sureashell didn't tell us that A1 went up to do a jump stop.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're missing that A1 went up to shoot. A1 did not go up to do a jump stop. It's that simple, Mike.

Quote the rule which explains the difference between "going up to shoot" and "going up to do a jump stop."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Quote the rule which explains the difference between "going up to shoot" and "going up to do a jump stop."

Whatinthehell are you talking about? What has that got to do with what we're discussing- in any way, shape or form?

The original post told us that A1 went up to shoot. Period! There are rules that govern what happens if A1 doesn't shoot and comes down with the ball instead. Those rules have been cited.

Nowhere in this thread was it ever stated that A1 went up to do a jump stop. You..and others...have confused everybody by trying to work in something that never happened. I could care less what the rule is for "going up to do a jump stop". That rule is completely irrelevant because it has NOTHING to do with the situation being discussed and the question that was asked in the OP.

All anybody has to do is read the original post. It's the simplest call on the world if you do that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by docofficial

Player A1 ends his dribble and jumps off one foot in an apparent attempt to try for a goal. Player B1 jumps to block the try. So A1 does not release the ball and lands on the floor with both feet simultaneously.

What is the ruling here?

Again, here is the question.

A1 jumps off one foot to try for goal. A1 does not release the ball on the try but comes back down with it.

Forget everything else!! Answer solely with the facts that you know, which is that A1 jumped to shoot and then came back down with the ball. What happened before A1 went up to shoot is completely irrelevant to the question being asked.

If you saw this question as written above on an exam, what would your answer be?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Answer solely with the facts that you know, which is that A1 jumped to shoot and then came back down with the ball.

Even if this mattered, how is it a fact that you know?