Jump stop vs "up and down"

[APG]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Ok, imagine this A1 goes up for a layup and B1 jumps to block the shot. A1 realizes that the shot will be blocked, decides to return back to the floor with both feet landing simulataneously so his shot would not be block. You have the lifting/returning of the pivot foot to the floor. A1 had every intentions of taking a shot attempt.

Just because A1 lands with both feet does not constitute this a legal jump stop.

If A1 ends his dribble with a foot on the floor, jumps off that foot with the intention to shoot but seeing B1 will block the shot decides to land with both feet simultaneously, are you saying you would call a travel?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If A1 ends his dribble with a foot on the floor, jumps off that foot with the intention to shoot but seeing B1 will block the shot decides to land with both feet simultaneously, are you saying you would call a travel?

Yes, in my judgement if A1 ends the dribble to attempt a shot and realizes if the shot is release it will be blocked..

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yes, in my judgement if A1 ends the dribble to attempt a shot and realizes if the shot is release it will be blocked..

Based on what? Nothing in 4-44 mention what the player's intent was/might have been when he jumped and subsequently landed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Based on what? Nothing in 4-44 mention what the player's intent was/might have been when he jumped and subsequently landed.

Say what?

The original post said that "Player A1 ENDS his dribble and JUMPS OFF ONE FOOT IN AN APPARENT ATTEMPT TO TRY FOR GOAL."

A1's attempt was to try for goal!

After ending the dribble, A1 under NFHS rule 4-44-2 could either have already established a pivot foot or ended up landing on both feet simultaneously without establishing a pivot foot.

If A1 established a pivot foot, NFHS rule 4-44-3(b) says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

If A1 didn't establish a pivot foot after ending his dribble, NFHS rule 4-44-4(a) says "After coming to a stop where neither foot may be a pivot, one or both feet may be lifted, but mat not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

Traveling in both cases.

You people are confusing the end of the dribble with the player going airborne to shoot.

[BillyMac]

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

I had a similar situation a few months ago:

I Think I Blew One Today ???

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

The original post said that "Player A1 ENDS his dribble and JUMPS OFF ONE FOOT IN AN APPARENT ATTEMPT TO TRY FOR GOAL."

A1's attempt was to try for goal!

After ending the dribbler, A1 under NFHS rule 4-44-2 could either have established a pivot foot or landed on both feet simultaneously without establishing a pivot foot.

If A1 established a pivot foot, NFHS rule 4-44-3(b) says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

If A1 didn't establish a pivot foot after ending his dribble, NFHS rule 4-44-4(a) says "After coming to a stop where neither foot may be a pivot, one or both feet may be lifted, but mat not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

Traveling in both cases.

You people are confusing the end of the dribble with the player going airborne to shoot.

One has nothing to do with the other. He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor. He jumped, presumably to shoot, but then for whatever reason chose not to shoot. Instead, he landed simultaneously on both feet.

Legal play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor.

He jumped, presumably to shoot, but then for whatever reason chose not to shoot. Instead, he landed simultaneously on both feet.

Legal play.

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot. It is now illegal by the rules that I cited in both cases for A1 to jump and then have a foot return to the ground before letting the ball go on a pass or shot. It doesn't matter whether A1 landed in a jump stop either. That's completely irrelevant by rule.

What you're trying to say is that a player can end a dribble, and AFTER ending that dribble, he can then continue on and do a jump stop. Don't think so. You can end a dribble with a jump stop, but you can't legally do a jump stop after ending a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot.

Not true.

4-44-2b: If one foot is on the floor, it is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.

My understanding is that this never happened in the play at hand.

[APG]

Casebook 4.44.2 Situation A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot and alights on both feet simultaneously: (a) with feet parallel; or (b) with one foot in advance. Ruling: the positions of the feet has no significance, but they must come to the floor simultaneously. In both (a) and (b), it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot.

In the ruling, A1 catches the ball with the right foot on the floor ending his dribble per 4-15-4(a) which states the dribble ends when "the dribbler caches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands." A1 then jumps off his right foot and lands with both feet simultaneously.

Isn't that a case of a player ending his dribble and continuing on with a jump stop?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot. It is now illegal by the rules that I cited in both cases for A1 to jump and then have a foot return to the ground before letting the ball go on a pass or shot. It doesn't matter whether A1 landed in a jump stop either. That's completely irrelevant by rule.

What you're trying to say is that a player can end a dribble, and AFTER ending that dribble, he can then continue on and do a jump stop. Don't think so. You can end a dribble with a jump stop, but you can't legally do a jump stop after ending a dribble.

I think you may be imagining a different play than the rest of us.

Plus, ending the dribble occurs the moment A1 catches the ball. After that, A1 may still execute a jump stop...that is basicaly the whole point of the referenced sections in the travel rule. The ending of the dribble doesn't preclude a subsequent jumpstop. If that were so, all jump stops would be illegal.

Note the part in red above. This is NOT the play being discussed. If, as you describe, A1 had established a pivot foot (by having the other foot touch the floor) or by executing a jump stop (having two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot) then it would certainly be illegal for A1 to jump and then land on either foot.

However, in the play at hand, that is not the sequence of events. The jump being discussed is before the 2nd foot touches and before both feet are on the ground after a jump stop....it is the jump part of the jump stop.

The question at hand is whether, during an otherwise legal jumpstop, can a player think about shooting (maybe even make arm motions that resemble the start of a try) and still complete the jump stop by landing.

[APG]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yes, in my judgement if A1 ends the dribble to attempt a shot and realizes if the shot is release it will be blocked..

Could you site specifically which part of 4-44 you are using to call traveling?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yes, in my judgement if A1 ends the dribble to attempt a shot and realizes if the shot is release it will be blocked..

Via what rule?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If A1 ends his dribble with a foot on the floor, jumps off that foot with the intention to shoot but seeing B1 will block the shot decides to land with both feet simultaneously, are you saying you would call a travel?

As written above, of course it's a travel by rule.

The player ended his dribble. It doesn't matter whether the player established a pivot foot while ending the dribble either. NFHS rules 4-44-3(b) and 4-44-4(a), as previously cited, both now say that the if the player then jumps to shoot, neither foot can return to the floor before that player shoots or passes.

You have to distinguish between the actual end of the dribble and the jump to shoot. As written above by yourself, A1 jumped to shoot, NOT to do a jump stop. And that's why it's traveling when he came down with the ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rules 4-44-3(b) and 4-44-4(a), as previously cited,

In 4-44-3 the player has established a pivot foot.

In 4-44-4 neither foot can be a pivot.

Neither of these apply to the play at hand.

[Camron Rust]

Legal move. Nothing in 4-44 prohibits it. It is a textbook jump stop.

The presence of B1 is irrelevant...the proximity of another player does not affect the travel rule.


It doesn't matter "why" the player jumped. The only things that matter are:

1. the fact that they caught the ball with only one foot on the floor
2. the fact that they jumped off of that foot without the other foot touching
3. the fact that they landed on both feet simultaneously

Having jumped off of one foot after catching the ball, no pivot has been established (defined in Articles 1 and 2). As such, Articles 3 and 4 do not apply...they are only relevant once the pivot is established.