rebound, pass

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Illegal dribble. 4.15.4E(b) (from an older book that I have by computer)....

A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: an illegal dribble violation....since the ball did not thouch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

The fact that it was thrown over B1's head in the case play is not really relevant as that really has nothing to do with the illegal dribble rule but is only there to set up the scenario.

Camron,
I'm obviously aware of that case book ruling, which has now been altered to a traveling violation.
I question its applicability to this situation for the following reason. A1 was airborne when throwing the ball. That's not true in the case play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camron,
I'm obviously aware of that case book ruling, which has now been altered to a traveling violation.
I question its applicability to this situation for the following reason. A1 was airborne when throwing the ball. That's not true in the case play.

Where in the case play does it actually say that A1 was not airborne? (I know, it is implied, but it doesn't actually say it )

That said, the point and intent of the case is that a player who has caught the ball (has player control) can not just throw the ball up into the air and run and catch it. The only legal ways to move the ball that is under player control are by shooting, passing or dribbling....and this is neither a shot, a pass or a dribble. (The ball may also be moved through involuntary loss of player control...fumble, opponent knocking the ball free, etc.)

It is a movement not intended to be legal. A player who has done so, according to the new version of the case play has traveled only because they are considered to be virtually holding the ball the entire time (that is the only way to get a travel out of that case play).

This is not unlike the player who is in control of the ball while sitting on the floor. If they place the ball on the floor, stand up, then grab the ball, they have traveled...because they are considered to be effectively holding the ball the entire time.

EDIT: Note that if the airborne player were to land, and without further movement of the feet, catch the ball they would not have traveled....as would be allowed had they held onto the ball the entire time and as is consistent with the case play where a player, while standing in one spot, tosses the ball from hand to hand.

Imagine the possibility if this were not a violation....A4 catches a rebound and, before landing, tosses it up into the air away from other players. A4 chases it down, jumps, catches it, and does the same thing again....and again...and again...all the way to the other end of the court where they finally catch it and dunk it. Hmmmm.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Imagine the possibility if this were not a violation....A4 catches a rebound and, before landing, tosses it up into the air away from other players. A4 chases it down, jumps, catches it, and does the same thing again....and again...and again...all the way to the other end of the court where they finally catch it and dunk it. Hmmmm.

An interesting point, but bear in mind you can legally do something similar to that with your feet on the floor.

For example, A1 is in the backcourt and attempts a try for goal. Player/team control has ended. A1 chases down the ball and catches it. Control is back. A1 repeats, and repeats, and repeats. You can't call travelling, because control ends on each "shot."

It sounds to me like we need to define when player control ended in the OP. If it began when the player secured the ball, did it end when he released the ball on the pass? If so, the travelling rule only covers when there is one or two feet on the floor, not zero.

If the ball hits the floor before retrieval, I can see a case for a dribble. If he simply catches his own "pass," I don't see anything illegal yet.

[SmokeEater]

I'll throw this in the mix as well.

The rebounder is jumping up several times and using a controlled tip to him/herself to keep the ball away from a defender until they can gather it with both hands. As a result of the tips the player moves several feet from the initial rebounding location. Some would call this good rebounding skills some may not.

Have they now done a similar act as what was in the OP?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

The rebounder is jumping up several times and using a controlled tip to him/herself to keep the ball away from a defender until they can gather it with both hands. As a result of the tips the player moves several feet from the initial rebounding location. Some would call this good rebounding skills some may not.

No matter what they call it, it's perfectly legal under NFHS and NCAA rules. There is no player control on a tip. They can 'control tip' the ball from one end of the court to the other legally as long as the ball never comes to rest on the hand of the player tipping it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I'll throw this in the mix as well.

The rebounder is jumping up several times and using a controlled tip to him/herself to keep the ball away from a defender until they can gather it with both hands. As a result of the tips the player moves several feet from the initial rebounding location. Some would call this good rebounding skills some may not.

Have they now done a similar act as what was in the OP?

No, because player control was never established in your case, but it was in the OP, because they specifically said the rebound was caught.

4-12-5 seems to cover your play: "Team control does not exist during a jump ball, or the touching of a rebound, but is re-established when a player secures control." 4-12-1 tells us player control only exists when a player is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

It sounds to me like we need to define when player control ended in the OP. If it began when the player secured the ball, did it end when he released the ball on the pass?

What pass?

You need to learn basic definitions, Bainsey. Read NFHS rule 4-31 and then tell us how that can be a pass.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

For example, A1 is in the backcourt and attempts a try for goal. Player/team control has ended. A1 chases down the ball and catches it. Control is back. A1 repeats, and repeats, and repeats. You can't call travelling, because (team) control ends on each "shot."

Not relavent. This is important - team control ends on a shot. In the OP, team control is established with the catch of the rebound, and team control does not end with the pass. Therefore, your example doesn't apply.

Originally Posted by bainsey

It sounds to me like we need to define when player control ended in the OP. If it began when the player secured the ball, did it end when he released the ball on the pass? If so, the travelling rule only covers when there is one or two feet on the floor, not zero.

And the violation that occurs is an illegal dribble per the case play, not a travel. It is not a "pass", because as per the definition, it did not go to another player. Therefore, it can only be part of a dribble. Then 4-15-2 comes in: "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hands." If the ball was still in the air when the player retrieved it, it is a violation. If the ball hit the floor, then it is part of a dribble. If they catch it, then dribble again, that would be another violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And the violation that occurs is an illegal dribble per the case play, not a travel. It is not a "pass", because as per the definition, it did not go to another player. Therefore, it can only be part of a dribble. Then 4-15-2 comes in: "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hands." If the ball was still in the air when the player retrieved it, it is a violation. If the ball hit the floor, then it is part of a dribble. If they catch it, then dribble again, that would be another violation.

Bingo!

It doesn't meet the definition of a "fumble" either. That leaves a dribble as the only alternative.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Not relavent.[sic]

To the OP, M&M? True. That illustration had more to do with Cam's example than anything.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You need to learn basic definitions, Bainsey.

Already covered, chief. If you notice in the following paragraph, "pass" is in quotes. Perhaps I should have done the same there, too, for clarity's sake.

Anyway, the number of feet on the floor is irrelevant when touching the ball twice. That's fine. While that certainly isn't a pass, and the act is indeed a violation, I'm not yet sold it's a dribble, either. If a dribble starts with the act of pushing the ball to the floor (NFHS 4-15-1), how can one call an illegal dribble when the definition of dribbling is not met?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

If a dribble starts with the act of pushing the ball to the floor (NFHS 4-15-1), how can one call an illegal dribble when the definition of dribbling is not met?

It would be an illegal dribble for that very reason....it didn't fit the required definition of dribbing. The legal method of dribbling is defined...any other method of of moving with "control" of the ball is illegal....an illegal dribble or a travel.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

While that certainly isn't a pass, and the act is indeed a violation, I'm not yet sold it's a dribble, either. If a dribble starts with the act of pushing the ball to the floor (NFHS 4-15-1), how can one call an illegal dribble when the definition of dribbling is not met?

Doesn't NFHS rule 4-15-2 say that you can legally bat the ball into the air during a dribble provided that the ball hits the floor before you touch it again? Doesn't a dribble start as soon as the ball leaves the dribbler's hand(s)?

That's where the definition of a "dribble" is met in the play being discussed.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Doesn't a dribble start as soon as the ball leaves the dribbler's hand(s)?

Absolutely, IF he is dribbling.

Consider the pass definition from earlier. If the action doesn't meet the definition of the pass, it's not a pass. That's the exact point I'm making about dribbling. If the action doesn't meet the definition of dribbling, then to be consistent, it shouldn't be called "dribbling," be it legal or illegal. While Case 4.15.4D(a) shows an illegal action after dribbling had started, the OP features a play where the definition isn't met.

Ultimately, it's a violation, and most people won't care what you call it, as long as you call it something. Perhaps "illegal dribble" is the closest we have within the existing rules, and considering the infinitesimal chance we'll ever have this play, that probably won't change.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And the violation that occurs is an illegal dribble per the case play, not a travel.

Not according to the "new" case book ruling. Please recall that the violation was changed a couple of years ago from illegal dribble to traveling by that rules guru Mary S.

For the record, I agree with Camron and JR that this action should be illegal. However, I can't find anything in the text of the NFHS rules that makes it so.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not according to the "new" case book ruling. Please recall that the violation was changed a couple of years ago from illegal dribble to traveling by that rules guru Mary S.

Oh, yea...I vaguely remember that... I may need to get a more recent copy here at the office. I wonder if my boss would mind if I took some additional bookshelf space for more basketball-related items?...

At least we agree it's a violation, even though we may disagree which one.