Things I learned at camp

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

I hear ya M&M, but contact alone doesnt determine a foul. I could've swore that the rulebook says the result of the contact is what determines what is & isn't a foul.

So... how can one determine that, if you're blowing the whistle prior to the play finishing???? Result = Finish, no?

I'm not talking about obvious fouls, just plays to the basket with contact.

Immediate whistles on plays to the basket results in cheap And1s & GIs more often than not.

Maybe we're talking about the same thing, but somehow I don't think so. We agree that "contact" is not a foul. I think we also agree officials should not blow the whistle immediately on contact. However, I think we disagree on when the whistle is actually blown. It should be blown immediately when it is determined the contact is illegal, NOT only when the play is "finished". And, the "play" does not always include the whole drive to the basket, however, it can include part of the path to the basket.

There is a segment of officials that use the reasoning that if a player makes the shot after contact, there wasn't a foul, and if the shot was missed, then there was a foul. That's not correct according to the rules, and just promotes lazy officiating. If a dribbler is bumped off their path due to illegal contact by a defender, it doesn't matter if they are just crossing the division line, or entering the lane on the way to the basket, it is a foul because it's illegal contact, and the whistle is blown at that point. The official shouldn't wait to blow the whistle solely because of one type of play over another.

Originally Posted by tref

Only time I wait on a 3 is when they contact the hand/wrist just after the release. A hit prior to or upon release, I'm getting immediately as that is not a drive to the bucket (no need for patience here). The key to those plays are taking the shooter up, down & beyond.

Can you tell me what unfair advantage is gained by the defense with contact on the wrist after the ball has left the hand? Does that contact affect the flight of the ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe we're talking about the same thing, but somehow I don't think so. We agree that "contact" is not a foul. I think we also agree officials should not blow the whistle immediately on contact. However, I think we disagree on when the whistle is actually blown. It should be blown immediately when it is determined the contact is illegal, NOT only when the play is "finished". And, the "play" does not always include the whole drive to the basket, however, it can include part of the path to the basket.

There is a segment of officials that use the reasoning that if a player makes the shot after contact, there wasn't a foul, and if the shot was missed, then there was a foul. That's not correct according to the rules, and just promotes lazy officiating. If a dribbler is bumped off their path due to illegal contact by a defender, it doesn't matter if they are just crossing the division line, or entering the lane on the way to the basket, it is a foul because it's illegal contact, and the whistle is blown at that point. The official shouldn't wait to blow the whistle solely because of one type of play over another.


Can you tell me what unfair advantage is gained by the defense with contact on the wrist after the ball has left the hand? Does that contact affect the flight of the ball?

Yup and yup. Please carry on whilst I go walk my dog. This thread is now in good hands.

And I'm intrigued too about the concept of waiting on a 3 to see if the ball goes in or not when contact was made on the shooter's hand after the ball left his hand. That's a brand new concept to me also. Maybe the idea is to see if the contact affected the RSBQ of the hand.

And let me know if Zambrano shows up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup and yup. Please carry on whilst I go walk my dog. This thread is now in good hands.

And I'm intrigued too about the concept of waiting on a 3 to see if the ball goes in or not when contact was made on the shooter's hand after the ball left his hand. That's a brand new concept to me also. Maybe the idea is to see if the contact affected the RSBQ of the hand.

And let me know if Zambrano shows up.

Let us know if everything came out all right with your dog.

And, if Carlos does show up, I'm hiding my Gatorade containers.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let us know if everything came out all right with your dog.

And, if Carlos does show up, I'm hiding my Gatorade containers.

He's chilling with Ozzie today. Have you checked Comiskey?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

IMO, contact on the hand or wrist after the release isn't a foul; this is not an advantage as it doesn't restrict the shooter from performing normal offensive movements since they are completed.

Is the shooter still a shooter until his foot returns to the wood?
Is the follow-through not a part of the try?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You must have the dumbest coaches and the stoopidest "powers that be" in the whole freaking world if they can understand, let alone swallow, that nonsense.

Really? We have a difference of opinion & you resort to name calling? That’s say a lot about you Mr. Assignor.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you use RSBQ anywhere on the court to determine incidental contact versus illegal contact.

Well, the game and the way it's being officiated hasn't changed at all. Not a damn bit. The terminology only has changed.

Actually, RSBQ is used above the FT line extended (when used properly) SDF is used on plays to the basket below the FT line.

So, the players aren’t bigger, faster & stronger in todays game? If the way the game is being played has changed, why shouldn’t the mindset of officials change? Keep it in the 70s if you like… Im gonna change with the GAME!
But yeah guys like me don’t understand :->

The Tower Principle - For newer officials

Out with the old in with the new, but dont worry about it, you'll catch on in about 3-5 years. Then we'll be practicing some other new philosophies that you'll despise

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If a dribbler is bumped off their path due to illegal contact by a defender, it doesn't matter if they are just crossing the division line, or entering the lane on the way to the basket, it is a foul because it's illegal contact, and the whistle is blown at that point.

So you have many “do-overs” in your games huh? If we can hold the whistle for a sec when players are “entering the lane on the way to the basket” we can put them on the FT line as opposed to “nice move kid, ohh & you scored as well, now take it out & try again.”

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Can you tell me what unfair advantage is gained by the defense with contact on the wrist after the ball has left the hand? Does that contact affect the flight of the ball?

You've seen the release & the defensive hit that knocks the shooters hand sideways or vertically, I'm sure!
Our job is to judge whether that contact AFTER the release affected the shot.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In that case, I'd suggest that this entire debate is more about semantics than practical play calling.

I don't think anyone was suggesting passing on any/all contact just because the ball went in...just contact that was merely suspect.

+1


Some people embrace change & adapt to better themselves, while others are stuck in neutral. I love change!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Is the shooter still a shooter until his foot returns to the wood?
Is the follow-through not a part of the try?

Contacting the hand or wrist (or arm) during the follow through does not affect the shot anymore than the Fred Flintstone tippy-toe-jig affects your bowling throw after you've let it go. The follow through is good for ensuring your previous shooting movements were fluid, but interrupting it with contact does not affect that movement. The question remains:
What advantage is gained by the defender with this contact after the shot is released?
Yes, the shooter is still a shooter, which is why I'll protect him from harm by calling contact which displaces him or knocks him to the floor.
No, the follow through is not part of the try, even though the try is not over.
Personally, I can say from sitting with local varsity refs watching freshman games that if I start calling this sort of contact, I'll be working freshman games exclusively.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The question remains:
What advantage is gained by the defender with this contact after the shot is released?

Snaqs you did play the game at a competitive level didn't you? Contact on the follow through can change the shot, sometimes. That's what we get paid to judge.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, the shooter is still a shooter, which is why I'll protect him from harm by calling contact which displaces him or knocks him to the floor.
No, the follow through is not part of the try, even though the try is not over.
Personally, I can say from sitting with local varsity refs watching freshman games that if I start calling this sort of contact, I'll be working freshman games exclusively.

I dont understand how that can be

hahahaha you KNOW damned well EVERYbody is watching the flight of the ball in freshman games! lol

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

You've seen the release & the defensive hit that knocks the shooters hand sideways or vertically, I'm sure!
Our job is to judge whether that contact AFTER the release affected the shot.

If the shot is missed, I can definitively state that it was not because of contact after the release.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1) Really? We have a difference of opinion & you resort to name calling? That’s say a lot about you Mr. Assignor.

2) Out with the old in with the new, but dont worry about it, you'll catch on in about 3-5 years. Then we'll be practicing some other new philosophies that you'll despise

3) Our job is to judge whether that contact AFTER the release affected the shot.

1) I can't find one instance for where I called you a name. Your ideas about officiating are about the dumbest that I have ever read though. Note that relates to your opinions, not you personally.

2) And you still don't get it. And you never will get it. And I won't bother repeating myself again after saying for the last time that you haven't said one damn thing that is new in any way. Everything you said is just a re-packaged version of some very old and still valid officiating principles. And unfortunately, you don't even seem to understand the re-packaged version correctly either.

3) And that tells me all that I really need to know about you as an official. The only way that contact after the release of a shot can affect that shot is if the contact is on the ball, not on the shooter. Put that together with your statement "I explained that the contact enough for an and 1 was just enough to put the player on the line for 2 on the missed try'" and you got two statements made by you in this thread that tie for the stoopidest statements ever made on this forum.

Onwards and upwards to your Brave New World of officiating, tref. Hopefully, when you do build up some spit in your whistle, you might understand what we're talking about.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

you got two statements made by you in this thread that tie for the stoopidest statements ever made on this forum.

Ever JR? Come on man, couldn't be...

You sound like my daughter, if she cant relate to something then its stupid (but shes a child) whats your excuse??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let us know if everything came out all right with your dog.

And, if Carlos does show up, I'm hiding my Gatorade containers.

I am proud to say that I'm am a responsible dog owner. I always carry a l'il doggie doo-doo bag and disposable gloves. I even mimic like I'm actually trying to pick sumthin' up if anybody happens to look my way, even though I never do. What I don't do is pat the l'il barker on the head and say "good doggie" and give her a dog treat after she takes a dump. Nobody ever does that for me. Fair's fair.

And as we talk, "going postal" is being changed to "going Carlos".