Things I learned at camp

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Late whistle" complaints? I've found that "late whistle" is code for, "I know it was the right call, but I have to whine about something." I also haven't heard one in a long time, to be honest.

There is a huge difference between a patient whistle and a late whistle. If you have a patient whistle on every play and see the play from start to FINISH and then decide if it even needs a whistle then every play will be the same. You won't jump calls or have "late" whistles.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Late whistle" complaints? .... I also haven't heard one in a long time, to be honest.

Yeah, they're not exactly frequent. I had one complaint this year that a call was "ten minutes late." I'm not too big on hyperbole when I'm trying to be accurate.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

There is a huge difference between a patient whistle and a late whistle. If you have a patient whistle on every play and see the play from start to FINISH and then decide if it even needs a whistle then every play will be the same. You won't jump calls or have "late" whistles.

If you're talking about the expectations of coaches, you're right, in general. You're still, however, going to get the occasional complaint on a legitimately patient whistle.

And, every now and then, you're going to have an actual late whistle.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you're talking about the expectations of coaches, you're right, in general. You're still, however, going to get the occasional complaint on a legitimately patient whistle.

And, every now and then, you're going to have an actual late whistle.

Of course, but if all your whistles are "slightly" late it is harder for the coach to decipher a "late" whistle from a "patient" whistle.

When we have a late whistle on a good call they never argue that it was the right call only that it was slightly late...whatever coach! LOL

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Imo the timing of the whistle is meaningless. What the calling official really needs to do is take the extra second to determine if the ball the ball was gathered or not at the time of the foul.

I don't think timing is meaningless. I think that if you get in a habit of calling plays quickly, you'll have poor timing when you need that extra half-second. Quick timing in basketball means you'll have fouls when you wish a second later that you would've passed on the call.

It's just like baseball. You develop good timing on all pitches and plays, even though you don't need it on 90% of them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't think timing is meaningless. I think that if you get in a habit of calling plays quickly, you'll have poor timing when you need that extra half-second. Quick timing in basketball means you'll have fouls when you wish a second later that you would've passed on the call.

It's just like baseball. You develop good timing on all pitches and plays, even though you don't need it on 90% of them.

I think that you missed my point, Rich. There are some plays that you can call quickly or slowly and the timing of the whistle makes absolutely no difference at all. Examples are plays like violations and obvious fouls. Player steps on a line, travels, etc....you see it, you call it. And by obvious fouls, I mean the ones that you're going to call no matter what when you put air in your whistle. Then there are some other other plays that you have to let develop and finish before you can make a decision as to whether that play deserves a whistle at all. Those usually involve contact situations in which you have to decide whether the contact was incidental or not. The best example of that is contact while rebounding. Some contact on a rebound is a no-brainer. If the player with position got shoved all over hell or knocked down, you gotta call it imo. On another rebound though, the player with legal position might have been displaced but either that displacement didn't stop him from getting the ball or the ball didn't come his way anyway. Those you can wait on and let go as incidental contact.

That's what a patient whistle means to me. You shouldn't call some plays quickly, but that theorem doesn't apply to all plays.

[tref]

Had a coach in a camp over the weekend ask, "is that one where you wait to see if it goes in?"
I explained that the contact wasnt enough for an and1 but was just enough to put the player on the line for 2 on the missed try.
He bought into it & we had no more discussion about it.

Had another coach comment "that was so late."
Coach, would you rather me be late & right or quick & wrong... no more discussion.

I believe illegal contact on the dribbler (RSBQ) on the perimeter requires an immediate whitle. While plays to the basket below the FT line extended require a patient whistle (SDF).

Timing of your whistle & what you do after you put air in it, is crucial!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't think timing is meaningless. I think that if you get in a habit of calling plays quickly, you'll have poor timing when you need that extra half-second. Quick timing in basketball means you'll have fouls when you wish a second later that you would've passed on the call.

It's just like baseball. You develop good timing on all pitches and plays, even though you don't need it on 90% of them.

There are three parts to a play.

1. The beginning
2. The development
3. The finish

The baseball analogy was great because that is what I try to do in basketball. You call the play too quick and you might be wrong. And yes I do this on all plays where I call a foul (or try that is).

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1) Had a coach in a camp over the weekend ask, "is that one where you wait to see if it goes in?"
I explained that the contact wasnt enough for an and1 but was just enough to put the player on the line for 2 on the missed try.
He bought into it & we had no more discussion about it.

2) I believe illegal contact on the dribbler (RSBQ) on the perimeter requires an immediate whistle. While plays to the basket below the FT line extended require a patient whistle (SDF).

1) You're extremely lucky that the coach bought into that nonsense. Most coaches...and hopefully all officials reading this...wouldn't because that's all that it is--->nonsense. If the contact was enough to make it a foul, then you call the foul. End of story. If the contact wasn't enough to make it a foul, then the contact was legal(incidental contact) and you don't call anything. If you do call the foul, you then have to decide if the foul occurred before or after the player went into their shooting motion. That's where the "And 1" comes in. Try that one on an experienced coach...or evaluator...and you'll get crucified.

2) You believe that WHERE a foul occurs on the court can be a determining factor as to whether that foul should be called or not? Please tell me that you really don't believe that. Illegal contact anywhere on the court requires an immediate whistle as soon as you determine that the contact really is illegal in nature.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tref

I explained that the contact wasnt enough for an and1 but was just enough to put the player on the line for 2 on the missed try.

Impossible.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

Had a coach in a camp over the weekend ask, "is that one where you wait to see if it goes in?"
I explained that the contact wasnt enough for an and1 but was just enough to put the player on the line for 2 on the missed try.

Please give some serious thought to never using that rationale again.
I hope that you don't actually think in that manner while officiating a game.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by tref

I explained that the contact wasnt enough for an and-1 but was just enough to put the player on the line for 2 on the missed try.

I have seen officials use that same irrationale theory. Personally, I do not buy it. I am on the same side of bob jenkins, Nevadaref and Jurassic Referee

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) You believe that WHERE a foul occurs on the court can be a determining factor as to whether that foul should be called or not? Please tell me that you really don't believe that. Illegal contact anywhere on the court requires an immediate whistle as soon as you determine that the contact really is illegal in nature.

Ummmm no, sorry JR but thats NOT even close to what I said:

2) I believe illegal contact on the dribbler (RSBQ) on the perimeter requires an immediate whistle. While plays to the basket below the FT line extended require a patient whistle (SDF).

A foul is a foul...

Originally Posted by Zoochy

I have seen officials use that same irrationale theory. Personally, I do not buy it. I am on the same side of bob jenkins, Nevadaref and Jurassic Referee

Great, I'm happy for you Zoochy You guys do what works for you & I'll keep doing whats best for me...
The powers that be obviously like what I'm doing, I dont know too many officials who got the C'Ship in year 4. Do you? But I respect your opinions...

I dont have problems with coaches, I dont give cheap And1s & definitely no GIs

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by tref

Great, I'm happy for you Zoochy You guys do what works for you & I'll keep doing whats best for me...

Are you saying that in certain situations you wait to see if the shot goes in before whistling a foul?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Are you saying that in certain situations you wait to see if the shot goes in before whistling a foul?

AbsoFREAKINlutely!

Contact in the paint is far different from contact on the perimiter.
Once WE as officials get better on determining RSBQ vs SDF oh what a wonderful world it will be!

No disrespect, but it seems to me that its the vets who dont want to change their mindset. Probably why WE dont put em on the FT line as WE should on drives to the basket. The GAME has changed & WE need to adapt.