Delay of Game

[Jfpdi]

Working a AAU girls game and my partner calls a foul. He's the lead, I'm the trail. He goes to the table to report, I go to the endline to administer 2 free throws. The defending team coach called his players to the bench for a huddle. His bench is at the other end of the court. The free throw shooter is at the line but no one is occupying the 2 lowest lane spots. I expect since my partner is nearer the team that is in the huddle that he will notify the coach and the table of a delay warning. Instead he turns to me and says 2 shots it doesn't matter. Implying that it is o.k for me to ignore the 2 empty lane spots or the 1st shot. I tell hin get the team out of the huddle. During a time out he tells me that the coach of the delaying team is a varsity coach and the coach knew what he was doing annd that he wanted me to give the shooter the ball so that if she misssed the first shot he would call a violation and allow her to shoot again. I told him the call is a delay of game with the score keeper making a note in the book and that if there was another delay it was a technical and the other team shoots 2 and gets the ball. He said that may be the rule but that is not the way it is done.
I have only been doing this for 4 years but never heard this.

[bob jenkins]

I don't see a question, but both you and your partner were wrong.

[Adam]

Bob's right, you were both wrong.

Direct them to give you two players. If the coach refuses, it's a technical foul. If he wants his players to commit a violation to increase the odds of a made shot, they can do it from the lane spaces.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Bob's right, you were both wrong.

Direct them to give you two players. If the coach refuses, it's a technical foul. If he wants his players to commit a violation to increase the odds of a made shot, they can do it from the lane spaces.

Yup. NFHS case book play 10.1.5SitC(b)---> team "T" for any delay filling both spots after being directed to.

It was an AAU girls game with an official from NY. Mighta been NCAA Wimmens rules. I'm not sure without checking if there is a difference. And I don't feel like checking.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup. NFHS case book play 10.1.5SitC(b)---> team "T" for any delay filling both spots after being directed to.

It was an AAU girls game with an official from NY. Mighta been NCAA Wimmens rules. I'm not sure without checking if there is a difference. And I don't feel like checking.

JR:

There is no difference between NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's that I am aware of, but when the Team B's HC (B1 is shooting the free throws) has his five (5) players huddling with him I am inclined to charge the HC and not the team with the delay of game TF because if B1 was already occupying one of the first lane spaces and B2 refused to occupy the other lane space it would be a TF charged to B2 for delay of game.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. JR, I decided to read the NFHS Casebook Play after I submitted my post. I still stand by my interpretation that A-HC can be charged with the TF in the the OP because he is the one that is keeping B2 and B3 from occupying the first two lane spaces, where in the Casebook Play it presupposes that B2 and B3 are refusing to occupy the first two lane spaces of their own volition (I think I spelled it correctly, and if I didn't I am sure someone will correct me.).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

..... occupy the first two lane spaces of their own volition (I think I spelled it correctly, and if I didn't I am sure someone will correct me.).

Yes, you spelled "spaces" correctly. Good job.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

There is no difference between NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's that I am aware of, but when the Team A's HC (A1 is shooting the free throws) has his four (4) other players huddling with him I am inclined to charge the HC and not the team with the delay of game TF because A1 was already occupying one of the first lane spaces and A2 refused to occupy the other lane space it would be a TF charged to A2 for delay of game.

P.S. JR, I decided to read the NFHS Casebook Play after I submitted my post. I still stand by my stoopid personal opinion that A-HC can be charged with the TF in the the OP because he is the one that is keeping A2 and A3 from occupying the first two lane spaces, where in the Casebook Play it presupposes that A2 and A3 are refusing to occupy the first two lane spaces of their own volition.

Un-freaking- believable!!!

You're saying that your personal opinion is right and the rules as written are wrong. Do you really know how fundamentally stoopid that statement of yours is?

The case book play is the EXACT same play being discussed. And the RULES say that it's a TEAM technical foul. But you want to make up your very own rule and charge the head coach with a "T". That means that if that coach already has a "T", you're going to have to toss him. Good luck with that one, Mark.

Make up your own rules and you're committing career suicide if you get caught. And when there's a definitive case play that clearly covers a situation, you WILL be caught, if not by the coach you wrongly nailed but by a fellow official that does know the correct rule. Then it's back to the odd grade 5 game at Podunk Middle School.

Un-freaking- believable. This one isn't even worthy of a discussion, it's so black'n'white.

Forget all about the rules and make up your own.

Lah me.......

[Back In The Saddle]

Easy there, JR...don't be hatin' on PMS. We may be small, but we play with heart. And we deserve to have good refs too.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you really know how fundamentally stoopid that statement of yours is?.....Then it's back to the odd grade 5 game at Podunk Middle School.

Podunk Middle School, like almost all middle schools, is grades 6, 7 and 8 - not grade 5. Do you really know how fundamentally stoopid that statement of yours is?

BTW - I've been called it so many times in my life, I actually do know the correct way to spell "stupid".

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

The defending team coach called his players to the bench for a huddle. His bench is at the other end of the court. ... During a time out he tells me that the coach of the delaying team is a varsity coach and the coach knew what he was doing annd [sic] that he wanted me to give the shooter the ball so that if she misssed [sic] the first shot he would call a violation and allow her to shoot again.

Just an aside, why would the defending coach even do this?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jfpdi

Working a AAU girls game and my partner calls a foul. He's the lead, I'm the trail. He goes to the table to report, I go to the endline to administer 2 free throws. The defending team coach called his players to the bench for a huddle. His bench is at the other end of the court. The free throw shooter is at the line but no one is occupying the 2 lowest lane spots.

NFHS Casebook Play 10.1.5 SITUATION C (b):
The calling official has reported the foul and proceeds to his/her proper position for the first of two free throws awarded to A1. Two B players are not occupying the first two marked lane spaces next to the end line as required.
RULING: Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is a delay, a team technical foul is charged to team B (4-47).

Posted for anybody reading that might not be a basketball official and doesn't have the required books. It's that easy and simple.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS Casebook Play 10.1.5 SITUATION C (b):
The calling official has reported the foul and proceeds to his/her proper position for the first of two free throws awarded to A1. Two B players are not occupying the first two marked lane spaces next to the end line as required.
RULING: Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is a delay, a team technical foul is charged to team B (4-47).

Posted for anybody reading that might not be a basketball official and doesn't have the required books. It's that easy and simple.

JR:

I know that R1-S1-A5 is about Team Technical Fouls. AND, I will agree with you, hat under certain circumstances the penalty for the infraction in the OP is a team TF could be the correct penalty, BUT, R4-S47-A2 and R10-S1-A5d do not apply to the OP.

R4-S47-A2 and R10-S1-A5d were adopted in response to teams huddling in the free throw lane causing a delay in the administering of the free throw(s). This is not the case in the OP; the huddle in the OP was NOT in the free throw lane.

YES, there is a delay in the ball becoming live, but it is caused by player(s) intentionally NOT occupying the first lane space(s), or a HC instructing his player(s) to NOT occupying the first lane space(s). And depending upon the situation it could be a TF charged to the player(s), the HC, or to the team. AND, if it is charged to the team it is not because of an infraction of R4-S47-A2 and R10-S1-A5d.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

I know that R1-S1-A5 is about Team Technical Fouls.

And that's all that you know. Your lack of understanding of a definitive rules reference is appalling...but hardly surprising. It's a waste of time discussing this any further with you.

[Daryl H. Long]

TEAM TECHNICAL.

My answer to MTD early this afternoon when he called me with this play was TEAM TECHNICAL but I did not have rule book handy. Tonight I looked it up.

Final answer: TEAM TECHNICAL.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

TEAM TECHNICAL.

My answer to MTD early this afternoon when he called me with this play was TEAM TECHNICAL but I did not have rule book handy. Tonight I looked it up.

Final answer: TEAM TECHNICAL.

Yabut... does he believe you?

Obviously not, Rev.