Leg Tap

[Indianaref]

Are you calling this "driveby leg tap" if A) You had not previously warned or B) You had warned this player

Leg Tap on Yahoo! Video

[APG]

To me, there is no way to see the play from the angle we are presented. It certainly didn't look like much the official would easily have the best angle on the play.

[Jurassic Referee]

The ONLY way that we would ever know for sure what happened on any play like this would be to ask the calling official.

[BktBallRef]

Warning a player not to foul???? Huh???

[Anchor]

Obvious by the way that he reports the foul he is motivated in calling it. Whether there has been a warning is irrelevant--he has seen it before, maybe even in this game, and is putting a stop to it.

Like the little tummy poke that has been popular in the past--it has absolutely nothing to do with the game. The warning I give is to the captain. I tell him to cut it out because if I call it, it will be intentional.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Warning a player not to foul???? Huh???

Yeah

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Yeah

No.

I don't warn kids not to foul. I don't work with anyone that I have heard warn someone not to foul. If he fouls, call it. If it's not a foul, don't call it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No.

I don't warn kids not to foul. I don't work with anyone that I have heard warn someone not to foul. If he fouls, call it. If it's not a foul, don't call it.

Let me ask, then, do you deal with this play at all? Shooter goes up, defender does the drive by leg tap or stomach tap. There's no real advantage or effect on the shot, but it's hard to consider it "incidental" to playing the ball so I wonder if the contact is truly incidental.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No.

I don't warn kids not to foul. I don't work with anyone that I have heard warn someone not to foul. If he fouls, call it. If it's not a foul, don't call it.

OK then, I have you and everyone that has ever worked with you as Yes on A & B.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let me ask, then, do you deal with this play at all? Shooter goes up, defender does the drive by leg tap or stomach tap. There's no real advantage or effect on the shot, but it's hard to consider it "incidental" to playing the ball so I wonder if the contact is truly incidental.

If it's not incidental, call a foul. You don't call a foul if the contact causes no advantage (or disadvantage) and it is incidental. Not or.

In this particular case, the "warning" would be precisely calling a foul (assuming, of course, that the contact is a real one and not just a quick dusting).

Ciao

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

If it's not incidental, call a foul. You don't call a foul if the contact causes no advantage (or disadvantage) and it is incidental. Not or.

In this particular case, the "warning" would be precisely calling a foul (assuming, of course, that the contact is a real one and not just a quick dusting).

Ciao

Rule 4-27-3 seems to contradict my previous post, to be honest.
"Contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental."

Frankly, eg, this also contradicts your post. By this rule, contact which does not create an advantage or disadvantage is, by definition, incidental. So, in the case of the shooter getting his leg tapped, it seems as if it's by rule incidental and therefore not a foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rule 4-27-3 seems to contradict my previous post, to be honest.
"Contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental."

Frankly, eg, this also contradicts your post. By this rule, contact which does not create an advantage or disadvantage is, by definition, incidental. So, in the case of the shooter getting his leg tapped, it seems as if it's by rule incidental and therefore not a foul.

The advantage need not be physical, it could be mental. It could have the effect of disturbing the shooter's focus on subsequent shots when he/she anticipates getting poked in the leg/gut.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The advantage need not be physical, it could be mental. It could have the effect of disturbing the shooter's focus on subsequent shots when he/she anticipates getting poked in the leg/gut.

Except that by rule, it doesn't say "advantage/disadvantage," it talks about normal offensive and defensive movements. I don't see what rule basis there is for extending that to mental advantage.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mental advantage.

Please pack some up, and ship some out to Mark Padgett as soon as possible.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rule 4-27-3 seems to contradict my previous post, to be honest.
"Contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental."

Frankly, eg, this also contradicts your post. By this rule, contact which does not create an advantage or disadvantage is, by definition, incidental. So, in the case of the shooter getting his leg tapped, it seems as if it's by rule incidental and therefore not a foul.

I use a different rule set, as you probably know (FIBA):

47.3 When deciding on a personal contact or violation, the officials shall, in each instance, have regard to and weigh the following fundamental principles:
• ...
• Consistency in the application of the concept of 'advantage/disadvantage', whereby the officials should not seek to interrupt the flow of the game unnecessarily in order to penalise personal contact that is incidental and which does not give the player responsible an advantage nor place his opponent at a disadvantage.
• ...

Moreover, as Camron Rust points out, you should also consider other factors: intimidation, for example. I didn't say that a leg tap or a light poke in the ribs is necessarily a foul; but that the appropriate warning, if you think this behavior needs one, is to call a foul.

I believe this applies also to Fed's view of the game.

Ciao