2010-11 NFHS Rule Changes

[Adam]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I think you are confusing the "dictionary" definition of "at disposal of" and the "rules" definition.

By rule, a ball which falls through the basket into B1's hands is not at the disposal of B1 until either:
- B1 walks out of bounds and faces the court, thereby actually being able to make a throw-in pass.
- or team B delays enough that the official deems that the team should be in position to make the throw-in and starts the count then.

My only quibble.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I disagree with this. The ball can be at a player's disposal long before the official starts the count. When the ball clears the net after a goal, and a player from the throw-in team catches it, the ball is obviously at his disposal. He's holding it, so it's obviously available to him to begin the throw-in process. This is true even though the official usually doesn't start the throw-in count until the player is out of bounds.

Disposal implies that the player is in a location or could/should have been in a location to execute a legal throwin. Due to the ball deflecting off someone, the player may catch the ball 20ft. from the endline and would not be in a location where they could immediately execute a throw-in. The ball is not at their disposal in this case. The ball would not be live and the count would not start.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The point of the clarification is that the non-throw-in team can be granted a time-out request after a basket even if the throw-in team player is holding the ball (ball is available to him), because the ball doesn't become live until it is available AND the official starts the count.

The count starts simultaneous with disposal and live ball...always has....and that is when the player is (or could have been) in a position with the ball to make a throwin.

That is the whole point of the CLARIFICATION. Nothing changed, just that many misunderstood and were misapplying the rule.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

There had been some very technical debates about whether we should grant a time-out request from the scoring team in late game situations when the ball falls through the basket and into the hands of a player from the throw-in team. Technically by the old rule, we should NOT grant the time-out in that situation, because the ball became live as soon as it was at that team's disposal. But most of us DID grant those requests anyway. So the clarification was made to bring the rules in line with practice.

Incorrect. Nothing has changed. They've only clarified the rule to correct those who were mistakenly applying the rule as you stated in the red text.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by sseltser

4-4-7d: Ball is at the disposal of a player (B) following a made goal when it is available to him.

4-42-3: The throw-in (C) and the throw-in count (D) begin when the ball is at the disposal of the player entitled to it (B).

Here is where you're making the error. You're making the assumption that catching the ball is equivalent to available. It is not. Available mean that it is available in such a way that the player could make a legal throwin with it. Standing inbounds is not a legal place to make the throwin. So, the player has to take the ball to a spot where they can make the throwin....then, and only then, is it availble for the throwin, at their disposal, and live. (EDIT: or have time to take it to a spot wher they can make the throwin)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As per SITUATION #9 in the 2006-07 rules interpretations issued by the FED.

SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, the player has to take the ball to a spot where they can make the throwin....then, and only then, is it availble for the throwin, at their disposal, and live.

I gotta disagree with this. I had a team last year deliberately delay in picking up the ball after a made basket in order to set up their press break. The ball was bouncing on the floor, obviously available to a player. I started my count. The coach immediately grasped this. "Gotta go! He's counting!"

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by Nagy0716

2010-11 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

1. Rules Enforcement
2. Sportsmanship
3. Perimeter Play
4. Closely-guarded Situations
5. Principle of Verticality

*6 ACT OF SHOOTING! is it just me or does it seem like 90 percent of the time in HIGHSCHOOL, refs are to quick to wave of the shot and not let them "continue" after they are fouled?[/QUOTE]

And when you let it continue you hear, "This ain't the NBA!!"

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would agree, but the clarification in football (where this is much more of a realistic concern) was that all we do is send them off. After that, we are not involved. So if a player comes back in, it is assumed that they have been checked out. The only issue is if the player is deemed to be unconscious as normal. Your state or any state can take a harder line on this and require more documentation, but as it stands from football, this will be really on the coaches. The wording that came out is the exact same as other sports so far, but the application was not made very clear. Now it was made clear in football and it appears we really are not involved. We just send off a player we think has a concussion and move on. I agree we are not the best people to determine this, but in basketball it is a lot easier to see a player cannot function. In a sport like football it is very hard and the same kind of hand-eye coordination is not the same or as obvious considering many players in football might not be around the ball.

Peace

Per IHSA, once we send a player off, we are responsible to send in a report to Bloomington, whether the player returns or not. Coach tells us when he returns.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODJ

Per IHSA, once we send a player off, we are responsible to send in a report to Bloomington, whether the player returns or not. Coach tells us when he returns.

I would hold off on that until we get confirmation before the basketball season. They changed the policy in football twice and I would not be surprised if things that take place during the football season might make them rethink the policy or come up with another set of procedures.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by ODJ

*6 ACT OF SHOOTING! is it just me or does it seem like 90 percent of the time in HIGHSCHOOL, refs are to quick to wave of the shot and not let them "continue" after they are fouled?

And when you let it continue you hear, "This ain't the NBA!!"[/QUOTE]

Yes. Too many officials wave off shots that should be shooting fouls, but because the ball is not leaving the shooter's hand, they don't award free throws. Part of the problem is that a lot of people don't read the rule book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Yes. Too many officials wave off shots that should be shooting fouls, but because the ball is not leaving the shooter's hand, they don't award free throws. Part of the problem is that a lot of people don't read the rule book.

I do not think reading is the problem, I think a lack of understanding is.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I gotta disagree with this. I had a team last year deliberately delay in picking up the ball after a made basket in order to set up their press break. The ball was bouncing on the floor, obviously available to a player. I started my count. The coach immediately grasped this. "Gotta go! He's counting!"

Keep my full statement (and in context with my statement in the post just prior to the one you quoted) and you'll not disagree. I made it quite clear that a player who could have been OOB with the ball has it at his disposal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Keep my full statement (and in context with my statement in the post just prior to the one you quoted) and you'll not disagree. I made it quite clear that a player who could have been OOB with the ball has it at his disposal.

What's odd about the concept of 'availability to the thrower' is that it's disjunctive, depending on the context: it's either about the ball (in ordinary plays) OR about the thrower (in plays where the thrower is delaying).

That complicates the criteria officials must apply when judging whether the ball is available. In one case the criteria involve the ball ACTUALLY being available for a throw-in, but in the other the ball is merely POTENTIALLY available for a throw-in. In the latter case we have to assess whether the player is intentionally or negligently preventing the ball from actually being available.

Hell, I could teach a modal logic class around this case!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here is where you're making the error. You're making the assumption that catching the ball is equivalent to available. It is not.

I just have to disagree with this. If the ball falls through the net and a kid from the throw-in team catches it, it's available to him. I don't think it matters if the ball is inbounds or out of bounds, or being held or on the ground. If a player from the correct team can easily get the ball, that's "available". I don't see what else "available" can mean.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I just have to disagree with this. If the ball falls through the net and a kid from the throw-in team catches it, it's available to him. I don't think it matters if the ball is inbounds or out of bounds, or being held or on the ground. If a player from the correct team can easily get the ball, that's "available". I don't see what else "available" can mean.

One question...the second it falls through the net and the player grabs it, can that player execute a legal throwin? No. They're usually not OOB. It is not available for a throwin yet. To be made available for the throwin, it has to be in a spot where the throwin can legally occur (or there must have been time for a player to have taken it to such a spot).

This is really the only way the rules make any sense. Otherwise, you would, have to start a count on a player who picks up a ball after a made shot even when the ball comes out of the net oddly and bounces to midcourt. That is because live ball, count, available and disposal all start simultaneously....and we know that we don't count when the ball is retrieved at midcourt.

[Anchor]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Well then, you can't referee again until you come back with a doctor's note and have both coaches and the hot mom at the table clear you.......

You ref in a different sphere than me...........ain't no hot moms at the tables where I ref. Just cranky old battle-axes and crones.