2010-11 NFHS Rule Changes

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by sseltser

4-4-7d: Ball is at the disposal of a player (B) following a made goal when it is available to him.

4-42-3: The throw-in (C) and the throw-in count (D) begin when the ball is at the disposal of the player entitled to it (B).

Here is where you're making the error. You're making the assumption that catching the ball is equivalent to available. It is not. Available mean that it is available in such a way that the player could make a legal throwin with it. Standing inbounds is not a legal place to make the throwin. So, the player has to take the ball to a spot where they can make the throwin....then, and only then, is it availble for the throwin, at their disposal, and live. (EDIT: or have time to take it to a spot wher they can make the throwin)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, the player has to take the ball to a spot where they can make the throwin....then, and only then, is it availble for the throwin, at their disposal, and live.

I gotta disagree with this. I had a team last year deliberately delay in picking up the ball after a made basket in order to set up their press break. The ball was bouncing on the floor, obviously available to a player. I started my count. The coach immediately grasped this. "Gotta go! He's counting!"

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I gotta disagree with this. I had a team last year deliberately delay in picking up the ball after a made basket in order to set up their press break. The ball was bouncing on the floor, obviously available to a player. I started my count. The coach immediately grasped this. "Gotta go! He's counting!"

Keep my full statement (and in context with my statement in the post just prior to the one you quoted) and you'll not disagree. I made it quite clear that a player who could have been OOB with the ball has it at his disposal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Keep my full statement (and in context with my statement in the post just prior to the one you quoted) and you'll not disagree. I made it quite clear that a player who could have been OOB with the ball has it at his disposal.

What's odd about the concept of 'availability to the thrower' is that it's disjunctive, depending on the context: it's either about the ball (in ordinary plays) OR about the thrower (in plays where the thrower is delaying).

That complicates the criteria officials must apply when judging whether the ball is available. In one case the criteria involve the ball ACTUALLY being available for a throw-in, but in the other the ball is merely POTENTIALLY available for a throw-in. In the latter case we have to assess whether the player is intentionally or negligently preventing the ball from actually being available.

Hell, I could teach a modal logic class around this case!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here is where you're making the error. You're making the assumption that catching the ball is equivalent to available. It is not.

I just have to disagree with this. If the ball falls through the net and a kid from the throw-in team catches it, it's available to him. I don't think it matters if the ball is inbounds or out of bounds, or being held or on the ground. If a player from the correct team can easily get the ball, that's "available". I don't see what else "available" can mean.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I just have to disagree with this. If the ball falls through the net and a kid from the throw-in team catches it, it's available to him. I don't think it matters if the ball is inbounds or out of bounds, or being held or on the ground. If a player from the correct team can easily get the ball, that's "available". I don't see what else "available" can mean.

One question...the second it falls through the net and the player grabs it, can that player execute a legal throwin? No. They're usually not OOB. It is not available for a throwin yet. To be made available for the throwin, it has to be in a spot where the throwin can legally occur (or there must have been time for a player to have taken it to such a spot).

This is really the only way the rules make any sense. Otherwise, you would, have to start a count on a player who picks up a ball after a made shot even when the ball comes out of the net oddly and bounces to midcourt. That is because live ball, count, available and disposal all start simultaneously....and we know that we don't count when the ball is retrieved at midcourt.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

One question...

Ok, I can usually handle one question. Thanks for keeping it simple.

the second it falls through the net and the player grabs it, can that player execute a legal throwin? No. They're usually not OOB.

I agree, but the question you pose is irrelevant. Because. . .

To be made available for the throwin, it has to be in a spot where the throwin can legally occur (or there must have been time for a player to have taken it to such a spot).

There is no mention of being "available for a throw-in" in the rules. NFHS 4-4-7d simply says that the ball is at the disposal of a player when it's "available to a player after a goal". It doesn't even say it has to be the player who will make the throw-in, let alone that the player must be out of bounds. The ball just has to be available for a player to pick up. That's all it says. If a player can easily access the ball and then start the throw-in procedure, then the ball is available to him/her.

This is really the only way the rules make any sense. Otherwise, you would, have to start a count on a player who picks up a ball after a made shot even when the ball comes out of the net oddly and bounces to midcourt.

In this situation, the correct thing to do is not to start the count, but to stop the clock so game time is not wasted and retrieve the ball. Then the ball becomes live when thrower-in catches the ball from the referee.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ok, I can usually handle one question. Thanks for keeping it simple.

I agree, but the question you pose is irrelevant. Because. . .

There is no mention of being "available for a throw-in" in the rules. NFHS 4-4-7d simply says that the ball is at the disposal of a player when it's "available to a player after a goal".

Then what else is it available for?

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It doesn't even say it has to be the player who will make the throw-in, let alone that the player must be out of bounds. The ball just has to be available for a player to pick up. That's all it says. If a player can easily access the ball and then start the throw-in procedure, then the ball is available to him/her.

It doesn't say that at all. How far from the endline must the ball for it to not be "available" when a player picks it up? 2 feet? 5 feet? 15 feet? 30 feet? What rule provides that limit?

You can't answer those questions because they have no backing in the rules...either direct or implied.

It (live ball, count, disposal, etc.) either starts when a player picks up the ball without regard to location (not mentioned) or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

Therefore, the only conclusion that is supportable by rule is that the ball must be (or could have been in the case of a deliberate delay) available to actually make the throwin.....OOB.