2010-11 NFHS Rule Changes

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's an interesting editorial change. So on a free throw the ball can be at the disposal of the thrower but not be live. So if B2 shoots an elbow to the ribs of A2 before we start our count it would be a Technical instead of a personal foul. Same on throw-ins.

"At disposal", "live ball" and "count" all start at the same time. If you have one, you have them all. If you don't have one, you don't have any.

The only "change" here is for those who didn't understand the above concept.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"At disposal", "live ball" and "count" all start at the same time. If you have one, you have them all. If you don't have one, you don't have any.

The only "change" here is for those who didn't understand the above concept.

This clarification came out to all NCAA-W officials last year, clarifying when exactly the ball was "at the disposal" for a thrower in. It was something we already knew, but of course, something crazy happened so the NCAA put out a clarification on it and since Mary Struckoff is a big chiefess on both sides, it trickled down to the high school game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"At disposal", "live ball" and "count" all start at the same time. If you have one, you have them all. If you don't have one, you don't have any.

That's what I always thought.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The only "change" here is for those who didn't understand the above concept.

I thought maybe the change was put in for cowards.

[Scrapper1]

I'm very late to this party. Sorry. I followed the link from a more recent thread. I just want to comment on one post:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"At disposal", "live ball" and "count" all start at the same time.If you have one, you have them all. If you don't have one, you

I disagree with this. The ball can be at a player's disposal long before the official starts the count. When the ball clears the net after a goal, and a player from the throw-in team catches it, the ball is obviously at his disposal. He's holding it, so it's obviously available to him to begin the throw-in process. This is true even though the official usually doesn't start the throw-in count until the player is out of bounds.

Similarly, if the official puts the ball on the floor in the free throw circle next to the free throw shooter, the ball is available to the shooter. It's right there for her to pick up and try for goal. This is true even though the official probably won't start the count until she has moved into her normal Trail (or Center) position.

The point of the clarification is that the non-throw-in team can be granted a time-out request after a basket even if the throw-in team player is holding the ball (ball is available to him), because the ball doesn't become live until it is available AND the official starts the count.

There had been some very technical debates about whether we should grant a time-out request from the scoring team in late game situations when the ball falls through the basket and into the hands of a player from the throw-in team. Technically by the old rule, we should NOT grant the time-out in that situation, because the ball became live as soon as it was at that team's disposal. But most of us DID grant those requests anyway. So the clarification was made to bring the rules in line with practice.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm very late to this party. Sorry. I followed the link from a more recent thread. I just want to comment on one post:

I disagree with this. The ball can be at a player's disposal long before the official starts the count. When the ball clears the net after a goal, and a player from the throw-in team catches it, the ball is obviously at his disposal. He's holding it, so it's obviously available to him to begin the throw-in process. This is true even though the official usually doesn't start the throw-in count until the player is out of bounds.

I think you are confusing the "dictionary" definition of "at disposal of" and the "rules" definition.

By rule, a ball which falls through the basket into B1's hands is not at the disposal of B1 until either:
- B1 walks out of bounds and faces the court, thereby actually being able to make a throw-in pass.
- or team B delays enough that the official deems that the team should be in position to make the throw-in and starts the count then.

Just because the ball is or isn't in B1's hands, on the floor next to B1, or "available" are extraneous pieces of information, that do not in and of themselves matter when determining whether the ball is at the disposal of a player. That is, they play a part in the whole picture, but we need to know more about this situation, including where the player is standing and for how long.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I think you are confusing the "dictionary" definition of "at disposal of" and the "rules" definition.

With all due respect, I think you need to read 4-4-7. There is no rules definition of "available", but there is a definition of "at the disposal". All it says is that the ball is at the disposal of a player when it's available to a player after a goal. The new clarification says the ball becomes live when the ball is at the disposal AND the official has started counting. It's not enough anymore to be simply at the disposal in order for the ball to be live. That's the point.

By rule, a ball which falls through the basket. . .

Which rule is that, exactly?

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

With all due respect, I think you need to read 4-4-7. ...

Which rule is that, exactly?

I read through the pertinent rules / cases a bit more thoroughly and I'll agree that what I wrote was in error to the current rules.

Going through what happens during a throw-in, we have these things that have to happen:

A. Ball becomes live.
B. Ball is at disposal of thrower.
C. Throw-in begins.
D. Throw-in count begins.

6-1-2 (now) tells us that the ball is live (A) when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower (B) and the official starts his count (D).

4-4-7d: Ball is at the disposal of a player (B) following a made goal when it is available to him.

4-42-3: The throw-in (C) and the throw-in count (D) begin when the ball is at the disposal of the player entitled to it (B).


So I think that a problem lies that 4-42-3 tells us that B (disposal) causes D (count begins) and C (throw-in begins) to happen immediately. Now, 6-1-2 tells us that A (ball live) occurs when B (disposal) and D (count begins) happen, even though B (disposal) is supposed to have already caused D (count begins).


So Scrapper, if you aren't confused by the jumbled mess that I wrote above, I believe that what you said is that after a made basket, the ball is at the disposal of the thrower (i.e. available to him). But if the official does not start counting, then the ball is not live, per the change to 6-1-2. However the official not counting is directly in contradiction to 4-42-3.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by sseltser

4-4-7d: Ball is at the disposal of a player (B) following a made goal when it is available to him.

4-42-3: The throw-in (C) and the throw-in count (D) begin when the ball is at the disposal of the player entitled to it (B).

Here is where you're making the error. You're making the assumption that catching the ball is equivalent to available. It is not. Available mean that it is available in such a way that the player could make a legal throwin with it. Standing inbounds is not a legal place to make the throwin. So, the player has to take the ball to a spot where they can make the throwin....then, and only then, is it availble for the throwin, at their disposal, and live. (EDIT: or have time to take it to a spot wher they can make the throwin)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, the player has to take the ball to a spot where they can make the throwin....then, and only then, is it availble for the throwin, at their disposal, and live.

I gotta disagree with this. I had a team last year deliberately delay in picking up the ball after a made basket in order to set up their press break. The ball was bouncing on the floor, obviously available to a player. I started my count. The coach immediately grasped this. "Gotta go! He's counting!"

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here is where you're making the error. You're making the assumption that catching the ball is equivalent to available. It is not.

I just have to disagree with this. If the ball falls through the net and a kid from the throw-in team catches it, it's available to him. I don't think it matters if the ball is inbounds or out of bounds, or being held or on the ground. If a player from the correct team can easily get the ball, that's "available". I don't see what else "available" can mean.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I think you are confusing the "dictionary" definition of "at disposal of" and the "rules" definition.

By rule, a ball which falls through the basket into B1's hands is not at the disposal of B1 until either:
- B1 walks out of bounds and faces the court, thereby actually being able to make a throw-in pass.
- or team B delays enough that the official deems that the team should be in position to make the throw-in and starts the count then.

My only quibble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

1) Similarly, if the official puts the ball on the floor in the free throw circle next to the free throw shooter, the ball is available to the shooter. It's right there for her to pick up and try for goal. This is true even though the official probably won't start the count until she has moved into her normal Trail (or Center) position.

2) The point of the clarification is that the non-throw-in team can be granted a time-out request after a basket even if the throw-in team player is holding the ball (ball is available to him), because the ball doesn't become live until it is available AND the official starts the count.

1) If the official doesn't start the count as soon as the ball is placed on the floor, that official isn't following the rules...specifically NFHS rule 8-1-2--"The ball shall be placed at the disposal of the thrower or placed on the floor and the count shall begin."

2) As per SITUATION #9 in the 2006-07 rules interpretations issued by the FED.....
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html
In that situation, the throwing team is holding the ball in-bounds.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As per SITUATION #9 in the 2006-07 rules interpretations issued by the FED.

SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I disagree with this. The ball can be at a player's disposal long before the official starts the count. When the ball clears the net after a goal, and a player from the throw-in team catches it, the ball is obviously at his disposal. He's holding it, so it's obviously available to him to begin the throw-in process. This is true even though the official usually doesn't start the throw-in count until the player is out of bounds.

Disposal implies that the player is in a location or could/should have been in a location to execute a legal throwin. Due to the ball deflecting off someone, the player may catch the ball 20ft. from the endline and would not be in a location where they could immediately execute a throw-in. The ball is not at their disposal in this case. The ball would not be live and the count would not start.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The point of the clarification is that the non-throw-in team can be granted a time-out request after a basket even if the throw-in team player is holding the ball (ball is available to him), because the ball doesn't become live until it is available AND the official starts the count.

The count starts simultaneous with disposal and live ball...always has....and that is when the player is (or could have been) in a position with the ball to make a throwin.

That is the whole point of the CLARIFICATION. Nothing changed, just that many misunderstood and were misapplying the rule.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

There had been some very technical debates about whether we should grant a time-out request from the scoring team in late game situations when the ball falls through the basket and into the hands of a player from the throw-in team. Technically by the old rule, we should NOT grant the time-out in that situation, because the ball became live as soon as it was at that team's disposal. But most of us DID grant those requests anyway. So the clarification was made to bring the rules in line with practice.

Incorrect. Nothing has changed. They've only clarified the rule to correct those who were mistakenly applying the rule as you stated in the red text.