Was it a foul, or not?

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

#3 is completely rediculous. Contact could have been on the ball or hand. If you don't see it, don't guess.

I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about this play (and similar ones) where from the lead you can see no contact on the ball or hand but questionable contact on the forearm... When you see someone who shoots well have a shot come up 5 feet short, its a good indicator of illegal contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about this play (and similar ones) where from the lead you can see no contact on the ball or hand but questionable contact on the forearm... When you see someone who shoots well have a shot come up 5 feet short, its a good indicator of illegal contact.

I guess I'm at a loss to think of how you could see definitively there's no contact on the ball or hand if you can't tell whether there's contact on the arm. If you see definitively that there's contact on the forearm and it affects the shot, by all means get it; but you're not guessing. If anything, that calls for a patient whistle.

Are you saying you're sure there was contact, but need to determine if it was illegal? If that's the case, your angle really has nothing to do with it.

[KMBReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess I'm at a loss to think of how you could see definitively there's no contact on the ball or hand if you can't tell whether there's contact on the arm. If you see definitively that there's contact on the forearm and it affects the shot, by all means get it; but you're not guessing. If anything, that calls for a patient whistle.

That's the problem I had with the entire play. If you need a zoom-in replay to tell definitively whether contact was made, and WHERE it was made (and in this case, the replay still isn't conclusive), then can you really call that a foul?

And should the NBA front office step in and make such a statement on such a close visual call in the first place?

[sseltser]

Not attempting to completely change subjects, but if you watch the replay, the contact occurred directly above the defender. Isn't this the principle of verticality? Why is this a foul on the defender when the offensive player has his arms outstretched well in front of his body?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Not attempting to completely change subjects, but if you watch the replay, the contact occurred directly above the defender. Isn't this the principle of verticality? Why is this a foul on the defender when the offensive player has his arms outstretched well in front of his body?

Well, you made me watch it again, but I'd say the defender came out of his vertical space to make contact.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess I'm at a loss to think of how you could see definitively there's no contact on the ball or hand if you can't tell whether there's contact on the arm. If you see definitively that there's contact on the forearm and it affects the shot, by all means get it; but you're not guessing. If anything, that calls for a patient whistle.

Are you saying you're sure there was contact, but need to determine if it was illegal? If that's the case, your angle really has nothing to do with it.

I know what he's trying to say.

It is very possible that an official can definitively see that there was no contact in one spot because there was nothing near that spot (hand/ball) but you could see that the defender's hand was near the elbow but couldn't directly tell if they hit it or not---another player blocked your view of the elbow at the last moment. However, you could, to a great accuracy, tell whether there was contact or not from the effects of the possible hit....the arm twitching sideways in an unnatural way or the ball leaving the hand in an abnormal way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I know what he's trying to say.

It is very possible that an official can definitively see that there was no contact in one spot because there was nothing near that spot (hand/ball) but you could see that the defender's hand was near the elbow but couldn't directly tell if they hit it or not---another player blocked your view of the elbow at the last moment. However, you could, to a great accuracy, tell whether there was contact or not from the effects of the possible hit....the arm twitching sideways in an unnatural way or the ball leaving the hand in an abnormal way.

Well, since you put it that way....

[tref]

I am NOT going fishing in anothers pond for "questionable contact" when theres a capable official right on top of the play.

I follow the 3 Bs when expanding my PCA:
1. Be late
2. Be needed
3. Be right

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by tref

I am NOT going fishing in anothers pond for "questionable contact" when theres a capable official right on top of the play.

I follow the 3 Bs when expanding my PCA:
1. Be late
2. Be needed
3. Be right

I like the three B's.

Yikes I'm tired - meant this whole conversation to be about the Trail... Lead stays the hell out of this play haha.

I'm saying as the trail to have awareness of being "needed" because of the slot/center being straightlined

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about this play (and similar ones) where from the lead you can see no contact on the ball or hand but questionable contact on the forearm... When you see someone who shoots well have a shot come up 5 feet short, its a good indicator of illegal contact.

It's also a good indicator of a partially blocked shot. You only call what you're sure of at any level. You're guessing if you try to go by indicators.


Always call what you know, not what you think you know. If you're unsure, swallow your whistle.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about this play (and similar ones) where from the lead you can see no contact on the ball or hand but questionable contact on the forearm... When you see someone who shoots well have a shot come up 5 feet short, its a good indicator of illegal contact.

Defensive challenges on these plays can be hard to officiate. Often, the official with primary coverage is in bad position or caught up in another aspect of the play...feet, body contact, etc. The contact to affect a jump shot is usually subtle. as Bradford pointed out, Kevin Durant doesn't airball that shot without contact... However, we can't guess or assume the player missed because of a foul.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Tio

However, we can't guess or assume the player missed because of a foul.

Speak for yourself, I guess every time I blow the whistle.