When does travel occur?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you don't call this a violation based on the idea that it might have been a bounce pass to a guy trailing the play, trailing 40 feet behind the play, I'd like to be there to hear that explanation.

Want to hear it now?

"No violation because there was a legal first dribble and NO second dribble."

That's what I'd say to anybody who wanted me to call a violation. And I'd like to see anybody in the world(except you) question that. And if they did, I'd direct them to the rulebook definition of both a "fumble" and a "pass".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Want to hear it now?

"No violation because there was a legal first dribble and NO second dribble."

That's what I'd say to anybody who wanted me to call a violation. And I'd like to see anybody in the world(except you) question that. And if they did, I'd direct them to the rulebook definition of both a "fumble" and a "pass".

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

You seem determined to miss the point.

If A1 dribbles, the dribble starts when he releases the ball. This point is not in question.

If A1 violates by starting a dribble, then the violation occurs when he starts the dribble. This point is not in question.

But you can't know that he's dribbling until he COMPLETES a dribble, i.e., by touching the ball again after it has touched the floor.

You might want to INFER that he's dribbling when he releases the ball. "What else could he be doing?" But we're paid to observe and enforce, not to infer. It's not a violation until it's a violation -- NOT once you have no doubt that it's going to be a violation.

As I said many posts ago, the violation occurs before we're able to judge that it's a violation.

I'm not sure what's at stake for you in this discussion beyond your pride.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

Yep, that's when the violation occurred, but you don't know it until he touches it; otherwise based on this wording alone you'd have to call a violation when he palms it prior to pushing the ball to the floor for a pass.

[Raymond]

I just don't understand the big rush to call a violation (A1 drops ball instead of releasing shot) when you have rules backing not to.

If he touches it again, violation, if he doesn't, some other player comes along and play continues.

Why the need to jump right in with a whistle on a play that you have rules backing to let proceed?

[just another ref]

Okay, last chapter. If, in my judgment, a player pushes a dribble to the floor which is illegal, the whistle blows when the ball hits the floor. The majority of the time this is simply not that hard to judge. Team A has cleared a side of the court for A1 to work one on one. He palms the ball as he makes a spin move, then pushes it to the floor again. He obviously was going to the basket. This obviously was not a pass. If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and starts to dribble again, then remember when the ball hits the floor, is he allowed to run away from the ball and hope for a teammate to come pick it up. I say no. Finally, in the case of the jumpshooter who is about to have his shot blocked, so he drops the ball before returning to the floor, all he is thinking is "I can't come down with the ball in my hands." This is not a pass, so, by default, it is the start of a dribble, which means it is a travel.

I'm done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And perhaps he would direct your attention to 4.15.4:

A1.........allows the ball to come to rest in one hand. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble.

RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

And the exact same argument ensues.....

What violation has occurred if A1 palms/carries the ball? If A1 committed a pivot-foot violation while carrying the ball, he has committed a traveling violation by rule. If A1 did not travel during the palm/carry, and then dribbles again after the ball had come to rest on the palm/carry, then A1 has committed an illegal second dribble, also by rule. But what violation can you call if A1 doesn't travel during the carry and then also doesn't touch the ball again after dropping it at the end of the palm/carry? I can't justify calling that a dribble because...well...A1 never actually dribbled..... but that's just me.

Agree to disagree. Neither one of us is going to change the other one's mind.

[just another ref]

OK, I was wrong.





I'm not done.

I thought of another question. For those who say another touch is required, does it have to be with the hands? If the player about to get his shot blocked drops the ball, and it bounces up and hits his leg, does this make it a violation?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I thought of another question. For those who say another touch is required, does it have to be with the hands? If the player about to get his shot blocked drops the ball, and it bounces up and hits his leg, does this make it a violation?

I dunno: does that make it a dribble?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

OK, I was wrong.





I'm not done.

I thought of another question. For those who say another touch is required, does it have to be with the hands? If the player about to get his shot blocked drops the ball, and it bounces up and hits his leg, does this make it a violation?

Weird, really weird....I thought about the same scenario this afternoon. Guess our brains aren't that far off from each other.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I thought of another question. For those who say another touch is required, does it have to be with the hands? If the player about to get his shot blocked drops the ball, and it bounces up and hits his leg, does this make it a violation?

From the definition of a dribble in 4-15-1:
"intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)"

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

From the definition of a dribble in 4-15-1:
"intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)"

I already got this definition. To me it was already a dribble when it was pushed/dropped to the floor. I was asking all these others who say he must touch it again if the touch had to be with the hands. If they say no, I will find this point of view even more difficult to grasp.

The rest of the definition by the way: pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

He already pushed it to the floor once. Case closed.

[Adam]

I've given up having the last word for lent.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The rest of the definition by the way: pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

He already pushed it to the floor once. Case closed.

Pushing the ball to the floor is necessary but not sufficient for the act to be a dribble. It's also necessary that he touch it again. Together these conditions are jointly sufficient.