When does travel occur?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why are you not sure?


Player standing all alone, having not yet used a dribble, voluntarily drops the ball to the floor.

Are you granting a time-out?

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

[Adam]

Look, my point is simple, but let me start by stating I agree with Nevada that the rules support is there if you want to call this violation prior to A1 retouching the ball. Whether the drop is a dribble or not is entirely up to the official's judgment.

That said, I will never call this before A1 retouches it. Players are smart, and this is one rule they tend to know. If it's really a dribble, he'll show you by continuing the dribble. If it's a pass, he'll show you by purposefully avoiding the ball; likely boxing out his opponent at the same time to give a teammate time to get to the pass.

Let me change the play slightly.

A1 goes airborne for a shot, realizing it's about to get eaten by a young Dikembe, he throws the ball towards and empty corner of the court. He then proceeds to follow it, where for a few seconds, he's the only player in reach of the ball. You calling the violation if he doesn't touch it?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Players are smart, and this is one rule they tend to know.

Do they? What is the rule? Isn't that what we are debating now?

If it's really a dribble, he'll show you by continuing the dribble. If it's a pass, he'll show you by purposefully avoiding the ball; likely boxing out his opponent at the same time to give a teammate time to get to the pass.

In my opinion, the "passer" purposely avoiding the ball etc. is not what makes it a pass.

Let me change the play slightly.

A1 goes airborne for a shot, realizing it's about to get eaten by a young Dikembe, he throws the ball towards and empty corner of the court. He then proceeds to follow it, where for a few seconds, he's the only player in reach of the ball. You calling the violation if he doesn't touch it?

In this case, no. Throwing the ball toward an empty corner of the court bears no resemblance to the player simply dropping the ball to the floor.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do they? What is the rule? Isn't that what we are debating now?

The rule is the player can't start a dribble after jumping; players know this or they'd attempt it more. I can't remember any players actually attempting to start a dribble after jumping; not that it hasn't happened, just that to say it's rare is to overstate its frequency.

Originally Posted by just another ref

In my opinion, the "passer" purposely avoiding the ball etc. is not what makes it a pass.

Why not? We have to base it on something, and this meets the common sense test.

Originally Posted by just another ref

In this case, no. Throwing the ball toward an empty corner of the court bears no resemblance to the player simply dropping the ball to the floor.

How is it different? In both plays, you have a player purposefully putting the ball where only he has the ability to touch it first and no teammate is in the immediate vicinity. How is it different?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1 goes airborne for a shot, realizing it's about to get eaten by a young Dikembe, he throws the ball towards and empty corner of the court. He then proceeds to follow it, where for a few seconds, he's the only player in reach of the ball. You calling the violation if he doesn't touch it?

Originally Posted by just another ref

In this case, no. Throwing the ball toward an empty corner of the court bears no resemblance to the player simply dropping the ball to the floor.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How is it different? In both plays, you have a player purposefully putting the ball where only he has the ability to touch it first and no teammate is in the immediate vicinity. How is it different?

The NFHS deems that the player "began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor." The FED refers to the point when the player who threw the ball grabs it again as the end of the dribble, and clearly notes in the ruling that the player could also have "continued the dribble" "upon reaching the ball." So touching it again would be continuing the dribble, not starting it.
Here's the play ruling:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

[Adam]

So, Nevada, how would you call this play? Throwing the ball to the floor is obviously not a dribble all the time, so how do you make the determination? By what it looks like? Waiting to see who touches the ball next?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, Nevada, how would you call this play? Throwing the ball to the floor is obviously not a dribble all the time, so how do you make the determination? By what it looks like? Waiting to see who touches the ball next?

By using my hard-earned and well-seasoned judgment.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

I wouldn't, but it has nothing to do with your decision on the pass/dribble situation. At most, this would be an interrupted dribble, IMO. It may be right next to him, but if he's allowing multiple bounces between touches, he's not in control of that ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

..... if he's allowing multiple bounces between touches, he's not in control of that ball.

This is why I originally said I'd have to see the play, but I don't know why the multiple bounce would automatically mean no control. What if the dribbler raises both hands to make the timeout signal? About the time you see it, the ball is making a second bounce, still right beside the dribbler. You won't grant the timeout here unless the dribbler touches the ball again?

At most, this would be an interrupted dribble, IMO.

For the purpose of the discussion at hand, an interrupted dribble is still a dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is why I originally said I'd have to see the play, but I don't know why the multiple bounce would automatically mean no control. What if the dribbler raises both hands to make the timeout signal? About the time you see it, the ball is making a second bounce, still right beside the dribbler. You won't grant the timeout here unless the dribbler touches the ball again?

In this situation, I agree. I'm not saying it's automatic, either, just a rule of thumb I use to determine, for example, whether a dribbler is in control when he steps out of bounds.

Originally Posted by just another ref

For the purpose of the discussion at hand, an interrupted dribble is still a dribble.

Which is why i said "but it has nothing to do with your decision on the pass/dribble situation."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It may be right next to him, but if he's allowing multiple bounces between touches, he's not in control of that ball.

Rules citation? Is the ball "loose"? Has it gotten "away" from the dribbler?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules citation? Is the ball "loose"? Has it gotten "away" from the dribbler?

I don't have one, so there. I'd say it's loose in this case, even though it's not away from the dribbler.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't have one, so there. I'd say it's loose in this case, even though it's not away from the dribbler.

Years ago(mid-late 80's iirc), the FED issued a ruling on what an interrupted dribble was. They did so because for a year or so they had a rule that said that it was a violation if you tried to continue dribbling after re-gaining control of an interrupted dribble. Stoopid rule; they got rid of it real quick. Anyway, the FED said that a dribble was "interrupted" if a player couldn't immediately dribble if they wanted to. Iow, it met the criteria of current rule 4-15-5--ball is loose or momentarily gets away from the dribbler. Note the word 'away'.

Unfortunately, like a lot of other interpretations issued, that one got lost in the sands of time. The rule book however still uses "loose" and "away from the dribbler". A ball simply bouncing at the side of a player is neither loose nor away.

That said, it's also my opinion that dropping the ball while airborne and not touching it again is not a violation. There's a case book play(4-44-3SitB) that says it's a violation if an airborne player drops the ball to the floor AND then dribbles. That case book play doesn't say that it's a violation if that airborne player only drops the ball to the floor and doesn't touch it again. I think that if the FED had meant for that scenario to be a violation also, they would have written it as such.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is standing all alone, and the ball is bouncing beside him, why not?
Yes, grant the timeout.

I'll make this a little more realistic b/c my last scenario was strictly an unrealistic hypothetical.

A1 all by his lonesome in the backcourt. He lifts his pivot foot to step into a pass for A2 who is 20 ft ahead of him. A1 realizes A2 is not looking so instead voluntarily drops the ball.

Based on your previous posts you are immediately calling a travel, correct?

[Jay R]

I had e-mailed our national interpreter in Canada and his answer corresponds to the vast majority of responses here: no travel until it is touched again by the player.

I kicked it in the game but I will remember it next time.