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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 09:02pm
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Xavier vs Kansas State

18:09 remaining in 1st. Xavier brings the ball across midcourt and makes pass parallel to midcourt line. K-State deflects the cross court pass, hitting the ball down (ball strikes front court and heads toward Xaviers back court). Xavier is first to touch the ball approximately 7' into there backcourt. The ball didn't touch the backcourt prior to the touch.
Clearly a backcourt according to NFHS. I made this call numerous times this year, even though 75% of the fans, 50% of the coaches and usually 33% of the refs on the floor disagreed with me. I am now convinced that this is the number 1 missed call in all of basketball. (Isn't the NCAA rule the same as NFHS?)
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 09:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillblind View Post
18:09 remaining in 1st. Xavier brings the ball across midcourt and makes pass parallel to midcourt line. K-State deflects the cross court pass, hitting the ball down (ball strikes front court and heads toward Xaviers back court). Xavier is first to touch the ball approximately 7' into there backcourt. The ball didn't touch the backcourt prior to the touch.
Clearly a backcourt according to NFHS. I made this call numerous times this year, even though 75% of the fans, 50% of the coaches and usually 33% of the refs on the floor disagreed with me. I am now convinced that this is the number 1 missed call in all of basketball. (Isn't the NCAA rule the same as NFHS?)
I'm not sure if that meets the requirements for a backcourt. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. And I know NFHS issued that one interpretation on a backcourt play that many feel does not follow stated rule.

1. Team control-check there was team control
2. Ball had frontcourt status-check
3. Offense was last to touch the ball in the frontcourt-Kansas State was last to touch the ball in the frontcourt
4. Offense is first to touch the ball after the ball achieved a backcourt status

I do agree that last to touch-first to touch backcourt violation is a call that too many officials do not understand and forget about players/coaches understanding it.
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 09:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillblind View Post
18:09 remaining in 1st. Xavier brings the ball across midcourt and makes pass parallel to midcourt line. K-State deflects the cross court pass, hitting the ball down (ball strikes front court and heads toward Xaviers back court). Xavier is first to touch the ball approximately 7' into there backcourt. The ball didn't touch the backcourt prior to the touch.
Clearly a backcourt according to NFHS. I made this call numerous times this year, even though 75% of the fans, 50% of the coaches and usually 33% of the refs on the floor disagreed with me. I am now convinced that this is the number 1 missed call in all of basketball. (Isn't the NCAA rule the same as NFHS?)
Unless I am missing the description what you describe is not a violation. According to you, K-State caused the ball to go into the back court. It is perfectly legal for the team in control of the ball to go back and get that. Now if Xavier touched the ball before the ball went into the back court, then you are correct that is a violation.

BTW, the rules are the same for NF and NCAA. At least they are by the written rule.

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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 09:36pm
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I love having a DVR.

Just went back and reviewed the play in question. It appeared that the Kansas State player knocked the ball towards the backcourt. As the ball went into the backcourt, the Xavier player reached for and missed the ball while it was still in the air, the ball then bounced in the backcourt, and then the Xavier player recovered it in the backcourt.

Based on that, I think it was a correct no-call.
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 09:38pm
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Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes View Post
I love having a DVR.

Just went back and reviewed the play in question. It appeared that the Kansas State player knocked the ball towards the backcourt. As the ball went into the backcourt, the Xavier player reached for and missed the ball while it was still in the air, the ball then bounced in the backcourt, and then the Xavier player recovered it in the backcourt.

Based on that, I think it was a correct no-call.
DVR=win

I too went back and saw the play. The Xavier player was awfully to touching it in the backcourt but I agree with a good no call.
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 09:59pm
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The "gotcha" aspects of some of the more weird backcourt violations is the one rule change I would put through. I would eliminate all these violations, including the one where B knocked the ball off A into the backcourt.
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 10:03pm
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
The "gotcha" aspects of some of the more weird backcourt violations is the one rule change I would put through. I would eliminate all these violations, including the one where B knocked the ball off A into the backcourt.
How specifically would you word the rule compared to what it is right now?
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 10:26pm
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
I'm not sure if that meets the requirements for a backcourt. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. And I know NFHS issued that one interpretation on a backcourt play that many feel does not follow stated rule.

1. Team control-check there was team control
2. Ball had frontcourt status-check
3. Offense was last to touch the ball in the frontcourt-Kansas State was last to touch the ball in the frontcourt
4. Offense is first to touch the ball after the ball achieved a backcourt status

I do agree that last to touch-first to touch backcourt violation is a call that too many officials do not understand and forget about players/coaches understanding it.
You've almost got the wording right and you are right that this is a not a backcourt violation. Your numbers 3 and 4 should use the term "Team in team control" instead of "offense". Xavier was the team in team control but KState was last to touch the ball in frontcourt as you stated. If any one of the four elements are missing, there is no violation. In the OP, element 3 was missing. The team that was not in team control (KState) was last to touch in the frontcourt. This is the same point you make but I just wanted to clarify the wording.
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 10:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillblind View Post
18:09 remaining in 1st. Xavier brings the ball across midcourt and makes pass parallel to midcourt line. K-State deflects the cross court pass, hitting the ball down (ball strikes front court and heads toward Xaviers back court). Xavier is first to touch the ball approximately 7' into there backcourt. The ball didn't touch the backcourt prior to the touch.
Clearly a backcourt according to NFHS. I made this call numerous times this year, even though 75% of the fans, 50% of the coaches and usually 33% of the refs on the floor disagreed with me. I am now convinced that this is the number 1 missed call in all of basketball. (Isn't the NCAA rule the same as NFHS?)
First, welcome to the forum. Second, please explain why you think this is a violation. Please see the posts above.

BTW - the number 1 missed call in all of basketball is whatever call allows a game to go into overtime.
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Old Thu Mar 25, 2010, 10:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
How specifically would you word the rule compared to what it is right now?
I think that would be the biggest problem.

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Old Fri Mar 26, 2010, 12:55am
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The one I thought was missed was in the last two minutes of regulation. The K State player batted/threw the ball into backcourt off a rebound where it was recovered by a teammate. He had both hands on the ball, looked like control to me. Apparently the guys that count disagreed.
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Old Fri Mar 26, 2010, 01:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillblind View Post
18:09 remaining in 1st. Xavier brings the ball across midcourt and makes pass parallel to midcourt line. K-State deflects the cross court pass, hitting the ball down (ball strikes front court and heads toward Xaviers back court). Xavier is first to touch the ball approximately 7' into there backcourt. The ball didn't touch the backcourt prior to the touch.
Clearly a backcourt according to NFHS. I made this call numerous times this year, even though 75% of the fans, 50% of the coaches and usually 33% of the refs on the floor disagreed with me. I am now convinced that this is the number 1 missed call in all of basketball. (Isn't the NCAA rule the same as NFHS?)
By "rule," this is not a violation as Team A was not the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt.

Based on an old NFHS interp that was deleted without comment (I think), it is a violation.

I can't even say I've "seen" this play numerous times in my career, but I certainly haven't (nor will I) make this call. If they change the wording of the rule to make it a violation, I'll call it.
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Old Fri Mar 26, 2010, 03:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The one I thought was missed was in the last two minutes of regulation. The K State player batted/threw the ball into backcourt off a rebound where it was recovered by a teammate. He had both hands on the ball, looked like control to me. Apparently the guys that count disagreed.
I think Xavier touched it just before K-State's player recovered it in the BC. I watched it again on DVR and that had to be what it was. If not, they kicked it.
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Old Fri Mar 26, 2010, 06:34am
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The one I thought was missed was in the last two minutes of regulation. The K State player batted/threw the ball into backcourt off a rebound where it was recovered by a teammate. He had both hands on the ball, looked like control to me. Apparently the guys that count disagreed.
What has "both hands on the ball" have to do with anything? That's completely irrelevant when it comes to determining whether player control has been established. The only criteria to be used is whether the ball came to rest in either one or both hands of any player.

And imo in that particular play it didn't. Always a judgment call.
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Old Fri Mar 26, 2010, 07:11am
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There's another play from this game that I'd like to discuss.

Late in regulation, K-State was "trying to foul." There was contact made on one play near the division line, but the dribbler had a good clear path ahead of him, so no whistle. A few seconds later, there was a foul on a three-point attempt.

The color commentator (I came into the game late and didn't get names) was lamenting how unfair it was to K-State that the first contact wasn't called, and that Xavier gets three free throws instead of two, because the officials "missed" the first contact. Personally, I'm not sold that it was missed.

I disagree that this "should" have been called a foul, for two reasons. First, while there was contact, the dribbler didn't appear to be hindered by it, and we all know the reason for the contact. Second, should we accept this belief that the defense can stop the clock anytime they want, just because they're behind? Should we reward the defense with breaking the rules, just because they trail on the scoreboard? How can it be unfair to the defensive players, when they're the ones committing the infraction?

As a new guy here, I could easily be asking something discussed many times before, and I apologize if that's the case. Still, I'd enjoy thoughts on this.
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