Gotta get the obvious

[Kelvin green]

Just watched the California sectional between Etiwanda and Mater Dei..

I thought some strange coaching and time management at the end but Mater Die is up by 3 and Etiwanda has a last second shot for three right in fromt of their bench.... The player who is going to shoot the three gets grabbed and no call.... The initial view and physics of the play made it look like a foul... when looked at in slow motion and replay it clearly was a foul.

Moral of the story when youve got video you gotta get it right. Video does not lie... Three shot foul down by three could have made a difference...

We always hear let the kids decide the game. in this case the officials decided the game because a clear foul happened and did not put the shooter on the line.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Just watched the California sectional between Etiwanda and Mater Dei..

I thought some strange coaching and time management at the end but Mater Die is up by 3 and Etiwanda has a last second shot for three right in fromt of their bench.... The player who is going to shoot the three gets grabbed and no call.... The initial view and physics of the play made it look like a foul... when looked at in slow motion and replay it clearly was a foul.

Moral of the story when youve got video you gotta get it right. Video does not lie... Three shot foul down by three could have made a difference...

We always hear let the kids decide the game. in this case the officials decided the game because a clear foul happened and did not put the shooter on the line.

Mater Dei is the "Duke" of HS basketball... they get all the call/no-calls!

Gary McKnight is not my favorite... But I did enjoy sending him home in the semi-finals of the 91 season of the CIF playoffs. We took him down with Reggie Geary, Miles Simon and a couple other D-1'ers on that team... The fact we had Cherokee Parks on our team did help!

[SAJ]

under NFHS rules they cannot use the video to determine a foul

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by SAJ

under NFHS rules they cannot use the video to determine a foul

I don't think he was suggesting they could go to the video... I think he was saying, in games where there is a camera that can show you kicked the holy hell out of a play... you have to get it right.

That being said, the NFHS is not the end all and say all here. In the Texas State Semi's and Finals, a video monitor is available and can be consulted as a State Adaptation.

Therefore, your statement may or may not be true and valid depending on local edicts.

[APG]

Originally Posted by SAJ

under NFHS rules they cannot use the video to determine a foul

I'm pretty sure no one was saying that. More the fact that with every game being on tape today, we have can't pass on calling the obvious because the tape will prove us wrong later.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

I don't think he was suggesting they could go to the video... I think he was saying, in games where there is a camera that can show you kicked the holy hell out of a play... you have to get it right.

That being said, the NFHS is not the end all and say all here. In the Texas State Semi's and Finals, a video monitor is available and can be consulted as a State Adaptation.

Therefore, your statement may or may not be true and valid depending on local edicts.

Well it's not as if Texas is going against the NFHS seeing as one of the rule changes this year was allowing review in the state championship series. But as a general rule you are right on Fed not begin the final say.

[SAJ]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

I don't think he was suggesting they could go to the video... I think he was saying, in games where there is a camera that can show you kicked the holy hell out of a play... you have to get it right.

That being said, the NFHS is not the end all and say all here. In the Texas State Semi's and Finals, a video monitor is available and can be consulted as a State Adaptation.

Therefore, your statement may or may not be true and valid depending on local edicts.

the first part makes sense...

the rest, rubbish...

NFHS only allows replay for replay to "determine if a try for goal at the expiration of time in the fourth quarter or any overtime period (0:00 on game clock) should be counted, and if so, determine if it is a two- or three-point goal."

[SAJ]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Well it's not as if Texas is going against the NFHS seeing as one of the rule changes this year was allowing review in the state championship series. But as a general rule you are right on Fed not begin the final say.

ok, then...texas isn't following NFHS rules...simple explanation...

doesn't make my statement/ruling any less true

[BBall_Junkie]

you are correct regarding determining a foul... I did not read it all the way through... I just read NFHS can't use video.... Then again there aren't any levels that I know of where you can consult video to determine any common fouls.

[dahoopref]

Here's the play:

YouTube - Mater Dei vs. Etiwanda -- No-call on game-tying three-point attempt

I saw this game and what you have to understand is that this all took place with about 5 seconds left in the game. The ball was being inbounded after a made FT by White. The Black inbound pass was made near the baseline and pass receiver took two dribbles and passed it to a teammate at half-court. The black player who received the pass at halfcourt quickly passed it to his teammate on the wing in front of his bench. What you see is the aftermath from that pass. The final horn went off after the shot was released.

The closest person with a look at the play was the L who was standing on the baseline. The C had to officiate the play (pass to the wing) at half court and when the shot by black went up, the C had about 3 players blocking the view of the attempted shot. The T was still running up in the backcourt about FT line extended.

It was a play where the crew should've known that a 3pt shot was the only play that black was going to attempt. In my opinion, the L should not have been standing at the baseline; he should've have been about 2 feet away from the closest player to him anywhere near the 3pt line. I think he missed because he was too far away from the black player and that the contact happened on the far side of where he could see.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Just watched the California sectional between Etiwanda and Mater Dei..

I thought some strange coaching and time management at the end but Mater Die is up by 3 and Etiwanda has a last second shot for three right in fromt of their bench.... The player who is going to shoot the three gets grabbed and no call.... The initial view and physics of the play made it look like a foul... when looked at in slow motion and replay it clearly was a foul.

Moral of the story when youve got video you gotta get it right. Video does not lie... Three shot foul down by three could have made a difference...

We always hear let the kids decide the game. in this case the officials decided the game because a clear foul happened and did not put the shooter on the line.

Kelvin,
In Ohio all OHSAA State Finals are televised -- a number of others are as well. Pretty much every Ohio State game is televised -- as are nearly all Big Ten, Big 12, Big East, ACC, etc. Beyond that, virtually ALL high school and junior high games are taped by someone meaning an opportunity to end up on YouTube.

To expect all games to be perfectly called is unreasonable. As long as humans are officiating the game, mistakes will be made. I find it interesting that you commented that there was some strange coaching and time management, yet it was a call not made by an official that decided the game. Even though I did not see the game, I would be willing to bet that this call at the end of the game was not the only "mistake" (assuming it was a mistake) that the officials made during the game. Each team had 32 minutes to pull away from their opponent. Neither team was able to do that. While I agree that we hate to see a missed official's call near the end of a game, we cannot be perfect.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the fact that the officials cost the team the game. By the way, even if the FT shooter was a 72% FT shooter, there was only a 37% chance that the shooter would have made all three shots -- ignoring the added pressure of shooting three FTs at the end of a game. Even if the player had made all three, there was only a 50% chance the team would have won the game.

Bottom line: Even IF the official makes the call, there was about an 18.5% chance that the shooter's team would have won the game. Hardly a sure thing as you implied with "the officials decided the game because a clear foul happened and did not put the shooter on the line."

Just my $.02 as a coach and official and statistician.

[Kelvin green]

my point is that if they are a 72% shooter then let the team win or lose on the FT. The appropriate person would have decided it not the no call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Moral of the story when youve got video you gotta get it right. Video does not lie... Three shot foul down by three could have made a difference...

Somebody had to ask. Does this mean you are less concerned with getting it right if you know there is no video?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Somebody had to ask.

I disagree.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Here's the play:

YouTube - Mater Dei vs. Etiwanda -- No-call on game-tying three-point attempt

I saw this game and what you have to understand is that this all took place with about 5 seconds left in the game. The ball was being inbounded after a made FT by White. The Black inbound pass was made near the baseline and pass receiver took two dribbles and passed it to a teammate at half-court. The black player who received the pass at halfcourt quickly passed it to his teammate on the wing in front of his bench. What you see is the aftermath from that pass. The final horn went off after the shot was released.

The closest person with a look at the play was the L who was standing on the baseline. The C had to officiate the play (pass to the wing) at half court and when the shot by black went up, the C had about 3 players blocking the view of the attempted shot. The T was still running up in the backcourt about FT line extended.

It was a play where the crew should've known that a 3pt shot was the only play that black was going to attempt. In my opinion, the L should not have been standing at the baseline; he should've have been about 2 feet away from the closest player to him anywhere near the 3pt line. I think he missed because he was too far away from the black player and that the contact happened on the far side of where he could see.

Which side of the court was the L on?

If the L was on the ballside here, there's no reason at all he can't get this foul from the baseline. We all know that in transition the L may need to help out here.

I can't see the L being further up the court on this shot, though. The shooter and defender aren't exactly at half court here.