Backcourt?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by tonyvan

SitA: You mentioned the ball never came to a rest in the players hand, so the ball was never POSSESSED in the front court. Cannot have a backcourt violation if no possession took place in the front court. I would think being C at division line, you have a clear view of perception of the ball never passing the midcourt, so not making the call would seem appropriate. You're partner should have never made that call from his position.

SitB: I agree with you.

Next question, where did you resume play with the throw in after BC violation? Where touched or division line?

Situation A...

Are you sure?

A2, in the backcourt, passes the ball to A1 in the front court. The ball touches in the front court and a spin on the ball it back to A2 in the backcourt. According to you, there would be no violation since there wasn't possession in the front court.

I disagree. (9-9-2)

In the OP, the ball had front court status when the bat/pass was made and the dribble ended. Team control, last to touch, first to touch... I think I've got a violation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Situation A...

Are you sure?

A2, in the backcourt, passes the ball to A1 in the front court. The ball touches in the front court and a spin on the ball it back to A2 in the backcourt. According to you, there would be no violation since there wasn't possession in the front court.

I disagree. (9-9-2)

In the OP, the ball had front court status when the bat/pass was made and the dribble ended. Team control, last to touch, first to touch... I think I've got a violation.

Are you sure? Are you saying that if A1 has 2 feet in the backcourt and dribbling the ball in the frontcourt, that the ball has frontcourt status?

That's not how I read 4-4-1.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Are you sure? Are you saying that if A1 has 2 feet in the backcourt and dribbling the ball in the frontcourt, that the ball has frontcourt status?

That's not how I read 4-4-1.

No, sir. Three-points applies to the dribbler. I'm saying in the OP Situation A, in my opinion, the dribble ended when he batted/passed the ball.

[Fathertime]

This may not make sense, but if it was a bounce pass, I would allow it since the player is pushing the ball back to the ground, just like a dribble. If it was a direct pass, I may call a violation since the hand would need to go under the ball somewhat to keep it in the air. The thinking is if he had his hand on the ball this way then continued the dribble, I could have a carrying violation, and his dribble has ended.

I agree though that I would have to be there.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Fathertime

This may not make sense, but if it was a bounce pass, I would allow it since the player is pushing the ball back to the ground, just like a dribble. If it was a direct pass, I may call a violation since the hand would need to go under the ball somewhat to keep it in the air. The thinking is if he had his hand on the ball this way then continued the dribble, I could have a carrying violation, and his dribble has ended.

I agree though that I would have to be there.

A lot of players will bring the ball to rest then throw a bounce pass, that would be a violation in the OP.

[Fathertime]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A lot of players will bring the ball to rest then throw a bounce pass, that would be a violation in the OP.

In this case, I agree with you. That is why I offered the carrying situation to determine if the dribble has ended or not.

[tonyvan]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Situation A...

Are you sure?

A2, in the backcourt, passes the ball to A1 in the front court. The ball touches in the front court and a spin on the ball it back to A2 in the backcourt. According to you, there would be no violation since there wasn't possession in the front court.

I disagree. (9-9-2)

In the OP, the ball had front court status when the bat/pass was made and the dribble ended. Team control, last to touch, first to touch... I think I've got a violation.

I could be wrong here, but...when does 10 second backcourt count end? When the ball is possessed in the frontcourt, not when ball crosses the division line. Taking that into account, do you have a backcourt violation in SitA?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by tonyvan

I could be wrong here, but...when does 10 second backcourt count end? When the ball is possessed in the frontcourt, not when ball crosses the division line. Taking that into account, do you have a backcourt violation in SitA?

Yes, I think I do have a violation in the OP Situation A. In my opinion, the ball would have came to "rest" when change in direction occurred.

My point was that you stated you couldn't have a backcourt violation because no one ever possessed the ball which isn't true.

[Adam]

I see a lot of passes that are, essentially, no different than a dribble; a "dribble pass," if you will. The key is whether or not you would allow A1 to resume his dribble if A2 doesn't see the pass coming. If A1 never "held" the ball, no violation. If he held it, even briefly, violation. Judgment call all the way.

[tonyvan]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Yes, I think I do have a violation in the OP Situation A. In my opinion, the ball would have came to "rest" when change in direction occurred.

My point was that you stated you couldn't have a backcourt violation because no one ever possessed the ball which isn't true.

If the ball comes to "rest", that means the player now has possession of the ball. (and both feet in the front court = violation when passed to player in backcourt)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tonyvan

I could be wrong here, but...when does 10 second backcourt count end? When the ball is possessed in the frontcourt, not when ball crosses the division line.

Not true. It ends when the ball has FC status. That's different from either of the options you mentioned.

On the OP: Suppose A2 didn't catch the "pass", but A1 ran and recoved the ball. Would you have a dribble (or travel) violation? If so, then the dribble ended in the FC and it's a BC violation.

As I play it in my mind, unless A2 and A1 are standing very close to one another, I'd have a BC violation. (Not because "distance" is a criterion, but because the play is "A2 taking over the dribble" if they are close, but a "pass" if they are farther away.)

[Adam]

If I can't tell if A1 ended his dribble prior to passing it, then he didn't.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

.

As I play it in my mind, unless A2 and A1 are standing very close to one another, I'd have a BC violation. (Not because "distance" is a criterion, but because the play is "A2 taking over the dribble" if they are close, but a "pass" if they are farther away.)

I don't follow this. By definition, a pass can come from a bat. If that is the case here, the ball never had frontcourt status.