Can't comprehend this one

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

How about throwing it against the wall?

How about booting it into the empty seats behind the basket?

How about throwing it aginst the backboard?


Where do you draw the line?

You draw the line based on the situation and what the player is upset about. Throwing the ball off the wall can be done in many ways and not be a problem. What if the player is throwing the ball off the wall so it will come back to them?

This is why I do not like these "automatics" when there are all kinds of situations that these would not apply or be appropriate. Learn to deal with players and coaches without always having to give a T. But most officials I see are only concerned with blowing the whistle instead of communicating.

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You draw the line based on the situation and what the player is upset about. Throwing the ball off the wall can be done in many ways and not be a problem. What if the player is throwing the ball off the wall so it will come back to them?

This is why I do not like these "automatics" when there are all kinds of situations that these would not apply or be appropriate. Learn to deal with players and coaches without always having to give a T. But most officials I see are only concerned with blowing the whistle instead of communicating.

Peace

You'll let a kid boot a ball into the seats without penalty?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by asdf

You'll let a kid boot a ball into the seats without penalty?

Perhaps I just bet my partner $500 dollars that I could get a FT shooter to boot the ball into the stands, and then told the shooter that I would pay him $200 to do just that.

Now why would I penalize a kid who just made me $300?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by asdf

You'll let a kid boot a ball into the seats without penalty?

Usually no.

But.....

I had a game once where a player with the ball got whacked pretty solidly in the nuts trying to get out of double-team. Not done deliberately, for sure imo, but still a solid shot..and a foul. The player kinda reflexively hoofed the ball away before sinking to the floor. And the ball did make the bleachers. Did I call a "T"? Nope. There was nowayinhell that particular gesture was unsporting in nature, again imo. And the opposing coach also asked me about it; he wanted the "T" of course. I just told him "Not in that situation. coach."

I know where you're coming from. Those acts certainly look bad..and unsporting as well. But I know where Jeff is coming from also. There might be mitigating circumstances and that's why it's tough to apply a one-size-fits-all rule.

Again, imo there aren't really that many absolutes when it comes to calling unsporting technical fouls. You have to judge each individual situation on it's own merits and then call what you feel fits that situation.

[ref3808]

Do we WHACK automatically for each of Carlin's seven words? And, is it T for each instance or does one T covers all seven. Just wondering about combinations, sometimes they string the words together.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Perhaps I just bet my partner $500 dollars that I could get a FT shooter to boot the ball into the stands, and then told the shooter that I would pay him $200 to do just that.

Now why would I penalize a kid who just made me $300?

You're obviously just joking. He would have done it for $50.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

MTD - consider yourself disappointed in me...'cause I'm not calling that in a HS and definitely not in a college game.

imho an official has to ask himself/herself this question: "who was the unsportsman-like conduct directed towards?" certainly not an official, or opposing player, or coach, or fan...therefore, i'm not calling that...

We've been very clearly instructed by the state that it doesn't matter whether it was directed at an official or not; profanity is a T. Is it automatic? No, but the situation presented in the OP would have been a no-brainer in a HS varsity game here.

The rules don't say unsporting conduct has to be "directed" anywhere.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by asdf

Replace the profanity with the player slamming the ball down in frustration, whiffing on the "catch" as the ball comes up off the ground and it ends up 15 feet above the floor..........


We're shooting fouls shots in each situation.

again, I ask the question...."who was the unsportsman-like conduct directed toward?"...the ball? c'mon...

i'm not wacking a kid for that action on this one either.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ref3808

Do we WHACK automatically for each of Carlin's seven words? And, is it T for each instance or does one T covers all seven. Just wondering about combinations, sometimes they string the words together.

Not automatic, had a coach use the word "bullsh1t" and not get T'd by me; he was asking if a player was allowed to say it. "Is he allowed to say "bullsh1t like that?" He was referring to a hot head on the other team, but I hadn't heard the player say it, and told the coach as much.

[asdf]

So you are going to let him act in an unsporting manner because he made a bad pass, or his teammate fumbled a good pass?


Looks like it's time to re-visit the mission of Interscholastic sports.... you know the part about this being an extension of the classroom ??

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

You'll let a kid boot a ball into the seats without penalty?

It would depend on why a kid booted the ball into the stands. It would depend who they are mad at. It would depend on where the ball went. A lot of things depends and that is the way I am going to call it. Now I love the hypothetical, because I have never seen a kid boot the ball into the stands. I have seen kids bounce the ball several times and it was not always about us or even a call. It was about a certain level of frustration at themselves and we moved on. Sorry, everything is not black and white and no for me this is not automatic. You can call what you feel, but I am not going to call that for the reason you stated.

Peace

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

We've been very clearly instructed by the state that it doesn't matter whether it was directed at an official or not; profanity is a T. Is it automatic? No, but the situation presented in the OP would have been a no-brainer in a HS varsity game here.

The rules don't say unsporting conduct has to be "directed" anywhere.

A1 has just committed a silly turnover when no one was w/in 10ft of him in the last minute of a 72-72 game...he picks up the ball and violently throws it against the head of a player...A1 (himself!).

Are you going to call a T?
Is that unsportsman-like conduct?
Does it matter how far the ball bounced afterwards (5ft, 15ft, etc)?
Surely a player can't just hit himself in the head with the ball, can he?.....
Everyone saw it...

To me, the sole issue is was it directed at anyone else (player, coach, official, etc). This is a judgement call - we're paid to use our judgement in officiating a game...

Having said all of that...if the state tells you to penalize the action, you penalize the action - not just because you want to receive coveted state tournament assignments, but because that's what you were told to do by the "powers that be".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

A1 has just committed a silly turnover when no one was w/in 10ft of him in the last minute of a 72-72 game ...he picks up the ball and violently throws it against the head of a player...A1 (himself!).

Are you going to call a T?
Is that unsportsman-like conduct?
Does it matter how far the ball bounced afterwards (5ft, 15ft, etc)?
Surely a player can't just hit himself in the head with the ball, can he?.....
Everyone saw it...

To me, the sole issue is was it directed at anyone else (player, coach, official, etc). This is a judgement call - we're paid to use our judgement in officiating a game...

Having said all of that...if the state tells you to penalize the action, you penalize the action - not just because you want to receive coveted state tournament assignments, but because that's what you were told to do by the "powers that be".

I marked the irrelevant portion of your post. The state instruction on this was very specifically regarding the use of profanity; stating that coaches are not to be allowed to use it towards their players and players are not to be allowed to utter the words in frustration either. And the state has rule backing, whereas your criterion is not found in the book.

Your hypothetical is rediculous, but I'll play along. Did he go get the ball afterwards? I would call this the same as if the player, after getting called for traveling, tossed the ball away to no one in particular. I'll give him a chance to go get it, and ring him up if he doesn't (delaying the game).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I marked the irrelevant portion of your post. The state instruction on this was very specifically regarding the use of profanity; stating that coaches are not to be allowed to use it towards their players and players are not to be allowed to utter the words in frustration either. And the state has rule backing, whereas your criterion is not found in the book.

Your hypothetical is rediculous, but I'll play along. Did he go get the ball afterwards? I would call this the same as if the player, after getting called for traveling, tossed the ball away to no one in particular. I'll give him a chance to go get it, and ring him up if he doesn't (delaying the game).

I do not think his hypothetical is ridiculous at all. I think it is very valid to those that have not been given specific instructions. Jeff and I work in the same state and we have not been given any such instructions. So if we call a T for this, we would likely have to justify it by someone other than the state. If it is addressed in order to work for someone, I am sure both of us would follow that standard. But the current standard is what we think and not to be overly technical with an action that is not explicit in the rules.

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It would depend on why a kid booted the ball into the stands. It would depend who they are mad at. It would depend on where the ball went. A lot of things depends and that is the way I am going to call it. Now I love the hypothetical, because I have never seen a kid boot the ball into the stands. I have seen kids bounce the ball several times and it was not always about us or even a call. It was about a certain level of frustration at themselves and we moved on. Sorry, everything is not black and white and no for me this is not automatic. You can call what you feel, but I am not going to call that for the reason you stated.

Peace

There is no hypothetical here.

A kid on on the receiving end of a beautiful pass from a teammate. He fumbles it out of bounds. He retrieves it and out of frustration because he knows he made a mistake, he intentionally boots the ball into the empty stands behind the basket.

whack......each and every time.