An army may travel on it's stomach...

[Back In The Saddle]

...but can a player?

Situation from my game tonight. A1 has the ball knocked away cleanly by B1. A1 dives to retrieve the loose ball, slides briefly, and comes to rest on his stomach. As B1 approaches to attempt to grab the ball, A1 turns away from him about 1/4 of a turn, then calls TO. He did not move in any direction, just turned.

I granted the TO.

HC of Team B wanted a travel call for A1 "spinning around".

Four of us discussed it after the game, looked up the rules and cases, and came to no clear conclusion. My position is that A1 did not travel, and I offered two arguments:

1. There is no rule that clearly addresses this action, and anything that isn't illegal is legal.
2. Although the coach used the word "spin" a more suitable word would be "pivot". An upright player may "spin" to his heart's content within the restrictions imposed for a standing player by the traveling rule. Why shouldn't a player lying on his stomach be allowed to do the same, within the restrictions imposed for a prone player by the same rule (well, by 4.44.5 B anyway)?

Your thoughts?

[just another ref]

If there ain't a rule against it, it's a legal play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

As B1 approaches to attempt to grab the ball, A1 turns away from him about 1/4 of a turn, then calls TO. He did not move in any direction, just turned.

Trying to picture this: so if he were an aircraft, you're saying he yawed rather than rolled?

If that's right, I think this might be a travel. Yawing would be a kind of sliding on the floor, and if it happened as a deliberate act after he stopped sliding across the floor, I might have a travel on this.

[Back In The Saddle]

What would be your rationale for calling a travel on this?

[chartrusepengui]

If you took his spin, perhaps, and deemed it to be the beginnings of an attempt to get up. BUT - you'd have to have a quick whistle because he request a TO.

Hey - I'm with you on this - grant the TO but am just playing devils advocate.

[Juulie Downs]

I think what you're saying, BITS, is that he "pivoted" around his belly? Hmmm....

The rest of him besides his belly is sliding, without momentum being the reason. The ball moves significantly because of that sliding. i think I'd have called a travel...

[Amesman]

Reverse it a bit: If he's sitting on his butt and spins a 360, looking for somebody to pass to but making no attempt to get up (or flip on his stomach for whatever reason he might do that), would it be a travel?

As for the OP, I'm with BITS. There was no attempt to flip to his back/butt and you have to give the guy a chance to signal the TO, right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

A1 dives to retrieve the loose ball, slides briefly, and comes to rest on his stomach. As B1 approaches to attempt to grab the ball, A1 turns away from him about 1/4 of a turn, then calls TO. He did not move in any direction, just turned.


Why shouldn't a player lying on his stomach be allowed to do the same, within the restrictions imposed for a prone player by the same rule (well, by 4.44.5 B anyway)?

Your thoughts?

The case play that you cited above states that it's a violation if A1 rolls over. It doesn't say "attempt to roll over". Iow it is a judgment call but imo the player in your scenario above did not roll over. He may have started to but he certainly didn't finish doing so. Ergo, if the player doesn't roll over, there is no traveling violation.

And somewhere there's a similar thread on this from the last few months iirc.

[BillyMac]

... Nevaderef.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And somewhere there's a similar thread on this from the last few months.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The case play that you cited above states that it's a violation if A1 rolls over. It doesn't say "attempt to roll over". Iow it is a judgment call but imo the player in your scenario above did not roll over. He may have started to but he certainly didn't finish doing so. Ergo, if the player doesn't roll over, there is no traveling violation.

And somewhere there's a similar thread on this from the last few months iirc.

Even I know that the definition of traveling involves the feet moving in excess of prescribed limits. If the feet never touch the ground (no pivot foot established), it's not traveling. I think we've all seen stomach slides where the player secured the ball and kept both feet off the ground to avoid the traveling call.

I'd be curious how he managed that 1/4 spin. If he pushed off with the arm/hand and the feet are off the ground, then I don't think it's traveling. If he pushed off with one foot, I'd be curious what the ruling should be. If he drags the feet, I think it's pretty obvious it's traveling.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Even I know that the definition of traveling involves the feet moving in excess of prescribed limits. If the feet never touch the ground (no pivot foot established), it's not traveling. I think we've all seen stomach slides where the player secured the ball and kept both feet off the ground to avoid the traveling call.

A player lying on the floor has no pivot foot; it's not relevant to the play due to the rules. Traveling is normally about the pivot foot; except when the player is on the floor.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Even I know that the definition of traveling involves the feet moving in excess of prescribed limits. If the feet never touch the ground (no pivot foot established), it's not traveling. I think we've all seen stomach slides where the player secured the ball and kept both feet off the ground to avoid the traveling call.

I'd be curious how he managed that 1/4 spin. If he pushed off with the arm/hand and the feet are off the ground, then I don't think it's traveling. If he pushed off with one foot, I'd be curious what the ruling should be. If he drags the feet, I think it's pretty obvious it's traveling.

If a player gains control of the ball while on the floor, a foot simply touching the floor would not be relevant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If a player gains control of the ball while on the floor, a foot simply touching the floor would not be relevant.

Yep, and a player could travel, after getting the ball while standing, without ever moving his pivot foot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Even I know that the definition of traveling involves the feet moving in excess of prescribed limits. If the feet never touch the ground (no pivot foot established), it's not traveling. I think we've all seen stomach slides where the player secured the ball and kept both feet off the ground to avoid the traveling call.

I'd be curious how he managed that 1/4 spin. If he pushed off with the arm/hand and the feet are off the ground, then I don't think it's traveling. If he pushed off with one foot, I'd be curious what the ruling should be. If he drags the feet, I think it's pretty obvious it's traveling.

If a player gains possession of the ball while sliding, he does not have a pivot foot per se. Touching the floor with a foot/feet while sliding or after completing the slide is not considered as being traveling. What they are restricted from doing while lying on the floor after coming to a stop is rolling over or attempting to get up or stand(unless they start a dribble first). If they are lying flat on their back, they can legally sit-up.

Iow, forget about the pivot foot when you have a player on the floor holding the ball. Again, that player is OK unless he/she tries to roll over or get to their feet while holding the ball. That's what you're looking for.

NFHS rule 4-44-5(b) and case book play 4.44.5SitB.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a player gains possession of the ball while sliding, he does not have a pivot foot per se. Touching the floor with a foot/feet while sliding or after completing the slide is not considered as being traveling. What they are restricted from doing while lying on the floor after coming to a stop is rolling over or attempting to get up or stand(unless they start a dribble first). If they are lying flat on their back, they can legally sit-up.

Iow, forget about the pivot foot when you have a player on the floor holding the ball. Again, that player is OK unless he/she tries to roll over or get to their feet while holding the ball. That's what you're looking for.

NFHS rule 4-44-5(b) and case book play 4.44.5SitB.

I'm just going with what I have available to me, since the NFHS decided to require membership to access their online rulebooks. I thought that a lot of things are predicated on a certain set of conditions, but where approved rulings have made certain actions create some assumptions that make things easier on the official. An example would be that it was once legal to block a shot that had hit the backboard as long as it was still on the way up. I understand that it's now automatically considered a goaltend situation if blocked after hitting the backboard. I know it's very hard to tell.

Here's NCAA Approved Ruling 117, which mentioned pivot feet a lot. They use the term "virtually impossible". I can think of some way that it could go down that it is possible, but I guess they like to make things easier by assuming that certain actions mean that the pivot foot has been lifted.

A.R. 117. Is it traveling when a player:

(1) Falls to the playing court while holding the ball without
maintaining a pivot foot; or
(2) Falls to the playing court on both knees while holding the
ball without maintaining a pivot foot; or
(3) Gains control of the ball while on the playing court and
then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the
player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet?

RULING: (1) and (2) Yes, when the pivot foot is not maintained because
it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the
playing floor.
(3) No. The player may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once
the player has the ball and is no longer sliding, he or she may not roll over.
When flat on his or her back, the player may sit up without violating.
When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to
touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet
while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee
while holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.
(Rule 4-70.6 and 4-70.1)

I suppose you're right about the feet being allowed to be on the ground during a slide. I think we've all seen a few video clips of players getting control of a ball during a stomach slide, then crashing into a camera and taking out the video.