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An army may travel on it's stomach...
...but can a player?
Situation from my game tonight. A1 has the ball knocked away cleanly by B1. A1 dives to retrieve the loose ball, slides briefly, and comes to rest on his stomach. As B1 approaches to attempt to grab the ball, A1 turns away from him about 1/4 of a turn, then calls TO. He did not move in any direction, just turned. I granted the TO. HC of Team B wanted a travel call for A1 "spinning around". Four of us discussed it after the game, looked up the rules and cases, and came to no clear conclusion. My position is that A1 did not travel, and I offered two arguments: 1. There is no rule that clearly addresses this action, and anything that isn't illegal is legal. 2. Although the coach used the word "spin" a more suitable word would be "pivot". An upright player may "spin" to his heart's content within the restrictions imposed for a standing player by the traveling rule. Why shouldn't a player lying on his stomach be allowed to do the same, within the restrictions imposed for a prone player by the same rule (well, by 4.44.5 B anyway)? Your thoughts?
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"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming |
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If that's right, I think this might be a travel. Yawing would be a kind of sliding on the floor, and if it happened as a deliberate act after he stopped sliding across the floor, I might have a travel on this.
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Cheers, mb |
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What would be your rationale for calling a travel on this?
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"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming |
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If you took his spin, perhaps, and deemed it to be the beginnings of an attempt to get up. BUT - you'd have to have a quick whistle because he request a TO.
Hey - I'm with you on this - grant the TO but am just playing devils advocate.
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I think what you're saying, BITS, is that he "pivoted" around his belly? Hmmm....
The rest of him besides his belly is sliding, without momentum being the reason. The ball moves significantly because of that sliding. i think I'd have called a travel...
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It's not who you know, it's whom you know. |
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Reverse it a bit: If he's sitting on his butt and spins a 360, looking for somebody to pass to but making no attempt to get up (or flip on his stomach for whatever reason he might do that), would it be a travel?
As for the OP, I'm with BITS. There was no attempt to flip to his back/butt and you have to give the guy a chance to signal the TO, right? |
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And somewhere there's a similar thread on this from the last few months iirc. |
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This Sounds Like A Job For ...
... Nevaderef.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) |
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I'd be curious how he managed that 1/4 spin. If he pushed off with the arm/hand and the feet are off the ground, then I don't think it's traveling. If he pushed off with one foot, I'd be curious what the ruling should be. If he drags the feet, I think it's pretty obvious it's traveling. |
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If a player gains control of the ball while on the floor, a foot simply touching the floor would not be relevant.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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Iow, forget about the pivot foot when you have a player on the floor holding the ball. Again, that player is OK unless he/she tries to roll over or get to their feet while holding the ball. That's what you're looking for. NFHS rule 4-44-5(b) and case book play 4.44.5SitB. |
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Here's NCAA Approved Ruling 117, which mentioned pivot feet a lot. They use the term "virtually impossible". I can think of some way that it could go down that it is possible, but I guess they like to make things easier by assuming that certain actions mean that the pivot foot has been lifted. A.R. 117. Is it traveling when a player: (1) Falls to the playing court while holding the ball withoutI suppose you're right about the feet being allowed to be on the ground during a slide. I think we've all seen a few video clips of players getting control of a ball during a stomach slide, then crashing into a camera and taking out the video. |
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