Houston We Have A Problem!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Unfortunately, those that do the Sub-V books don't keep track of the arrow. I've only had one game this year where one of the books kept track of the AP, & that was last weekend, & it was the visitor's book.

If the V book keeps track, and the H book doesn't, is that allowed? Aren't the books supposed to compare everything? Do you have a reference for this?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the V book keeps track, and the H book doesn't, is that allowed? Aren't the books supposed to compare everything? Do you have a reference for this?

Rule 2-11-11, is that a good enough reference for you?

If the books are supposed to compare everything then why are some table setups done where the books aren't sitting side-by-side?

According to both Rule 2-11 & "Instructions to & Duties for the scorer of basketball games", the Official Scorebook is to be keeping track of the AP.

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

That was the only time this year, that during a Sub-V game that I noticed that one of the scorebooks was actually keeping track of the AP. Yes, the official scorer is, by rule/regulation, to keep track of the AP. However, they were never trained to do so. Just like I was never trained to do so when I was Boys' Basketball Manager doing the JV & C-Squad Books. So in this case, blame the coaches & the AD for not following the rules.

I was just thankful that at least someone else besides me was keeping track. I've had no complaints from the officials as I've done a great job with the AP, though there have been a few mix-ups, but at least somehow the AP is being taken care of, even though not according to the rules/regulations. It wasn't until this year & reading the rules book, case book, & officials' manual that I even realized that it's the job of the official scorer to keep track of the AP.

[Anchor]

As I read it the score was there but not reflected on the scoreboard.

Officials may not re-start game, but does not effect final score.

Game recorded as a tie.

[Texas Aggie]

2-2-4 says, "THE final score." There is no final score unless the game has ended (or could end), and the game doesn't ever end in a tie. There's no question that if there is an error in the book that has one team with more points at the end AND the officials leave the confines of the floor the game is over. However, if there is NO error in the book and it indicates the score is tied, the game is not over regardless of what the officials have done. There's no provision for a tied game, unless its declared interrupted or suspended.

So, assuming you have a score book that is correct (tied in points) and a scoreBOARD that is not correct (one team has more), when its pointed out to the officials, the game CAN continue without violating either the provisions of 2-4-4 or the casebook interpretation -- based on the scoring and overtime rules in Rule 5. I don't see anything in the rules that:

1) defines "final" or "final score." Thus, based on Rule 5, you have a tie game which means OT;
2) makes the scoreBOARD score official and the score that the game is left with if the officials leave the court;
3) specifically defines the word, "score," which means we look to the rest of Rule 2, and it is clear that it is the BOOK that determines what the real score is, not the scoreBOARD.

We leave the confines of the playing area at halftime, but the final score is not approved then. 2-2-4 doesn't specifically state at the end of the 4th quarter or at the end of an OT. Thus, it HAS to mean when a final score COULD POSSIBLE be approved, and it can't possibly be approved in the case of a tie.

[Judtech]

Is this a correctable error? It is obviously some type of error, but is it correctable and can it be correct in the time frame that the error was discovered by the officials?
My first thought is that while there is an error, the timeframe in which we are allowed to correct the error ended when the officials left the visual confines of the playing court.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the table crew will be more vigilant in the future.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Is this a correctable error? It is obviously some type of error, but is it correctable and can it be correct in the time frame that the error was discovered by the officials?
My first thought is that while there is an error, the timeframe in which we are allowed to correct the error ended when the officials left the visual confines of the playing court.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the table crew will be more vigilant in the future.

No, it's not a correctable error at all, regardless of when it happened.

It is a scoring error that could have been corrected at any point after it happened up until the officials leave the visual confines of the court.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

This should never happen especially if the table crew has worked together for any length of time.In a game like this the timer/board operator and official scorer should be conferring ("_______,does the board score match your book?-is an appropriate question to ask).Also in tight games it is common practice in our area for an official ,while reporting a late game timeout, to come and check timeouts remaining and whether the books (H & V) match!
It also brings to mind the question of scorekeeper training and experience-What percentage of the schools you serve have reasonably experienced scorers and tables? The schools in my league go like this in terms of scorekeeper experience

VG:
Me-4'th season as girls official scorer
A-1'st season
B-1'st season
C-1'st season
D-1'st season back after several off!

VB:
Me-5'th season as boys official scorer
A-1'st season
B-1'st season
C-2'nd season
D-2'nd season

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

There's no question that if there is an error in the book that has one team with more points at the end AND the officials leave the confines of the floor the game is over.

Agree...and while the other points that you made are well-taken, everything else that you wrote is completely irrelevant to the particular situation being discussed.

NFHS rule 2-11-11--"If the discrepancy was in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team total totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score."

NFHS rule 2-2-4--"The jurisdiction of the officials is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area."

1) Game ended with one team mistakenly ahead in the running score---> check.
2) Referee accepts bookkeeping mistake(wrong running score)---> check.
3) Final (wrong)score approved when both official leave visual confines of the court---> check.

That's all she wrote, podner, rules-wise. The officials' jurisdiction was terminated and by rule they no longer can fix the bookkeeping error.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Anchor

Game recorded as a tie.

Mark Padgett would agree with you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

If the books are supposed to compare everything then why are some table setups done where the books aren't sitting side-by-side?

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

[Texas Aggie]

everything else that you wrote is completely irrelevant

They were in response to a specific comment:

As I read it the score was there but not reflected on the scoreboard.

Officials may not re-start game, but does not effect final score.

Game recorded as a tie.

I'm not sure why we had a long discussion on a point that was already perfectly clear and covered by the casebook virtually word for word. Without going back and rereading the OP, I thought MAYBE (based on the above referenced comment) that a discussion on that situation might be helpful. That was the reason I posted what I did.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

They were in response to a specific comment:



I'm not sure why we had a long discussion on a point that was already perfectly clear and covered by the casebook virtually word for word. Without going back and rereading the OP, I thought MAYBE (based on the above referenced comment) that a discussion on that situation might be helpful. That was the reason I posted what I did.

Sounds like I misread your intent then. For that I apologize. Note that I did say that your points were well taken though, fwiw.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

For example: last night before Girls' JV, the Home coach, said he wanted the scorebook right next to the home bench, tried arguing the point with him but like talking to a brick wall. I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

It was for reasons like this that I did the thread on how the table should be set up. As before this year, when I was doing the Sub-V games, the books would always be right next to their benches.

It's also been cause of the books being next to their benches (& lack of proper training) that when I'm Scoreboard Operator/Timer, that I've been doing the AP instead of the scorer.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

For example: last night before Girls' JV, the Home coach, said he wanted the scorebook right next to the home bench, tried arguing the point with him but like talking to a brick wall. I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

It was for reasons like this that I did the thread on how the table should be set up. As before this year, when I was doing the Sub-V games, the books would always be right next to their benches.

It's also been cause of the books being next to their benches (& lack of proper training) that when I'm Scoreboard Operator/Timer, that I've been doing the AP instead of the scorer.

Is there something that I can do, to ensure the books are sitting side-by-side, without getting the officials involved? Can I actually quote rules/regulations to the coach(es)?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Is there something that I can do, to ensure the books are sitting side-by-side, without getting the officials involved? Can I actually quote rules/regulations to the coach(es)?

If you want to fight this battle, it's up to you. Don't be surprised, though, if you get shot down and/or replaced. It's not worth it.

Also, the rule says the scorer is "responsible" for the possession arrow. It doesn't say he has to be the one who physically controls it. IMO, he's "responsible" for it just as the HC is "responsible" for the conduct of his bench personnel.

My advice: relax.