Houston We Have A Problem!

[Adam]

There's no need to keep posting this.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There's no need to keep posting this.

I wonder if he knows whether the scorer at JV-C games keeps track of the arrow?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wonder if he knows whether the scorer at JV-C games keeps track of the arrow?

Unfortunately, those that do the Sub-V books don't keep track of the arrow. I've only had one game this year where one of the books kept track of the AP, & that was last weekend, & it was the visitor's book.

I keep mentioning that the scorer is supposed to keep track of the AP, but it falls on deaf ears. Apparently neither the coaches nor the AD seem to want to follow rules/regulations.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Unfortunately, those that do the Sub-V books don't keep track of the arrow. I've only had one game this year where one of the books kept track of the AP, & that was last weekend, & it was the visitor's book.

If the V book keeps track, and the H book doesn't, is that allowed? Aren't the books supposed to compare everything? Do you have a reference for this?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the V book keeps track, and the H book doesn't, is that allowed? Aren't the books supposed to compare everything? Do you have a reference for this?

Rule 2-11-11, is that a good enough reference for you?

If the books are supposed to compare everything then why are some table setups done where the books aren't sitting side-by-side?

According to both Rule 2-11 & "Instructions to & Duties for the scorer of basketball games", the Official Scorebook is to be keeping track of the AP.

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

That was the only time this year, that during a Sub-V game that I noticed that one of the scorebooks was actually keeping track of the AP. Yes, the official scorer is, by rule/regulation, to keep track of the AP. However, they were never trained to do so. Just like I was never trained to do so when I was Boys' Basketball Manager doing the JV & C-Squad Books. So in this case, blame the coaches & the AD for not following the rules.

I was just thankful that at least someone else besides me was keeping track. I've had no complaints from the officials as I've done a great job with the AP, though there have been a few mix-ups, but at least somehow the AP is being taken care of, even though not according to the rules/regulations. It wasn't until this year & reading the rules book, case book, & officials' manual that I even realized that it's the job of the official scorer to keep track of the AP.

[Anchor]

As I read it the score was there but not reflected on the scoreboard.

Officials may not re-start game, but does not effect final score.

Game recorded as a tie.

[Texas Aggie]

2-2-4 says, "THE final score." There is no final score unless the game has ended (or could end), and the game doesn't ever end in a tie. There's no question that if there is an error in the book that has one team with more points at the end AND the officials leave the confines of the floor the game is over. However, if there is NO error in the book and it indicates the score is tied, the game is not over regardless of what the officials have done. There's no provision for a tied game, unless its declared interrupted or suspended.

So, assuming you have a score book that is correct (tied in points) and a scoreBOARD that is not correct (one team has more), when its pointed out to the officials, the game CAN continue without violating either the provisions of 2-4-4 or the casebook interpretation -- based on the scoring and overtime rules in Rule 5. I don't see anything in the rules that:

1) defines "final" or "final score." Thus, based on Rule 5, you have a tie game which means OT;
2) makes the scoreBOARD score official and the score that the game is left with if the officials leave the court;
3) specifically defines the word, "score," which means we look to the rest of Rule 2, and it is clear that it is the BOOK that determines what the real score is, not the scoreBOARD.

We leave the confines of the playing area at halftime, but the final score is not approved then. 2-2-4 doesn't specifically state at the end of the 4th quarter or at the end of an OT. Thus, it HAS to mean when a final score COULD POSSIBLE be approved, and it can't possibly be approved in the case of a tie.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Anchor

Game recorded as a tie.

Mark Padgett would agree with you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

If the books are supposed to compare everything then why are some table setups done where the books aren't sitting side-by-side?

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

[Texas Aggie]

everything else that you wrote is completely irrelevant

They were in response to a specific comment:

As I read it the score was there but not reflected on the scoreboard.

Officials may not re-start game, but does not effect final score.

Game recorded as a tie.

I'm not sure why we had a long discussion on a point that was already perfectly clear and covered by the casebook virtually word for word. Without going back and rereading the OP, I thought MAYBE (based on the above referenced comment) that a discussion on that situation might be helpful. That was the reason I posted what I did.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

For example: last night before Girls' JV, the Home coach, said he wanted the scorebook right next to the home bench, tried arguing the point with him but like talking to a brick wall. I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

It was for reasons like this that I did the thread on how the table should be set up. As before this year, when I was doing the Sub-V games, the books would always be right next to their benches.

It's also been cause of the books being next to their benches (& lack of proper training) that when I'm Scoreboard Operator/Timer, that I've been doing the AP instead of the scorer.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

What if the V coach doesn't want his/her scorer moved? They want their scorer close to their bench so they can communicate, then what?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

In the main gym (V games) the table setup is generally, the shot clock (next to home bench), scoreboard/timer, Home (official) scorebook, & visiting scorebook.

In this setup during the V games, it's the official scorer that does handle the AP as per rules/regulations.